The Idiots Guide to Stryker MGS tactics

[Jasper 2x]

Something to remember is that the M68A1 gun. Is rifled so it can fire HE much better then the M256 smoothbore.

Basically the Stryker MGS is a wheeled medium/ light skinned tank destroyer/ assault gun combination.

[ October 13, 2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Jasper 2x ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

It sounds like a modern PSW 234/4. It even has the same problems.

[RMC]

Originally posted by Jasper 2x:

Something to remember is that the M68A1 gun. Is rifled so it can fire HE much better then the M256 smoothbore.

Please elaborate on how the rifling affects HE performance.

I am aware that a spinning HEAT round can have reduced penetration performance because of the spin imparted to the round. IIRC freely-rotating driving bands were developed so that a HEAT round would get no spin when fired from a rifled gun.

The smoothbore gun has no rotation applied to the round, so if anything it should be better.

[Kurtz]

Maybe you need fin-stabilized shells if you fire from smoothbore guns. That might reduce the HE payload?

[Jasper 2x]

Most smoothbore ammunition is sub-calibre. The only full-calibre western HE rounds I know of are the 120mm and 105mm Rheinmetall HE rounds.

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=880&query=he%20120mm

Rheinmetall has been trying to push its new 105mm smoothbore. Which it hopes will be used on the MGS.

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=835

So it’s possible to fire HE out of a smoothbore. But you would need enough fin area to stabilize the round and the fins take up space inside the shell, wild speculation on my part but I wonder if the new Rheinmetall rounds use unfolding fins. One reason the Challenger still has a rifled gun is to maintain high accuracy with HESH shells

[RMC]

Never heard that smoothbore rounds were subcaliber. The fins take up space in the casing, not the projectile. This is the 120MM M830 HEDP round. I don't see where the smoothbore affects the potential for the warhead. That this round is dual purpose and not dedicated HE is a different issue.

[Jasper 2x]

120MM M830 HEDP is obsolete look at the M830A1 HEAT-MP-T. "HEAT-MP-T uses a discarding sabot with a sub-caliber warhead". Like I said the vast majority of 120mm smoothbore rounds are sub caliber

http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120he-mp.htm

The M830 also not really HE.

[RMC]

The 830 is still in service. Still, the subcaliber round "uses multi-purpose fragmentation/shaped-charge warhead which despite its smaller diameter, compared to the M830, demonstrated 20% performance increase against bunkers and 30% increase against light armored vehicles."

So what was the advantage that the rifled gun supposedly has?

[JonS]

HE foo. HE against soft targets.

[Tiger II]

Originally posted by RMC:

It's C4I now. Guess what the new C is for.

"Commander-in-Chief" ?

[lucero1148]

Re. the MGS why use a hi velocity 105 for bunker busting when a 90mm rc can do the same job. More ammo, no recoil, LAV won't roll over when turrent is in the wrong position. About the only drawback is all the blast smoke from the RC. The MGS crew would never take on a MBT unless from ambush positioning than scuttling away.

Patrick

[Kurtz]

"But when you shoot it, you know where that extra money went".

90 mm recoilless is inferior to 105 mm high velocity guns in both penetration and accuracy. Time in flight is longer and most vehicle armour is optimized agaisnt HEAT weapons (which a 90 mm RCl must use). And you can't have that many more rounds, a 90 mm RCL round is pretty big too.

Apart from that, the 105 mm is already in the US inventory. So I say let them splve the recoil problem and use the 105 mm gun.

[RMC]

Originally posted by JonS:

HE foo. HE against soft targets.

Uh, yeah, the page he linked to shows a new, dedicated HE round coming into service too. I can understand that an HEDP round would be less effective than the dedicated HE round, but I still don't see how this is a consequence of using a smoothbore gun. They could have had a dedicated, single purpose HE round for the M256 from the get go had they wanted one.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by RMC:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jasper 2x:

Something to remember is that the M68A1 gun. Is rifled so it can fire HE much better then the M256 smoothbore.

Please elaborate on how the rifling affects HE performance.

</font>

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by RMC:

"The fundamental mission of the mobile gun system platoon is to provide mounted, precision direct fire support to the SBCT infantry company. Its ability to move, shoot, and communicate, and to do so with limited armored protection, is an important factor on the modern battlefield. The MGS platoon moves, attacks, defends, and performs other essential tasks to support the company's mission. In accomplishing its assigned missions, it employs firepower, maneuver, and shock effect, synchronizing its capabilities with those of other maneuver elements and with CS and CSS assets. When properly supported, the platoon is capable of conducting sustained operations against any sophisticated threat."

"The intended purpose of the MGS is primarily to close with and destroy enemy infantry."

-FM 3-21.11, App B

oh, we have those too:

"Der Wertsack ist ein Beutel, der aufgrund seiner besonderen Verwendung nicht Wertbeutel, sondern Wertsack genannt wird, weil sein Inhalt aus mehreren Wertbeuteln besteht, die in den Wertsack nicht verbeutelt, sondern versackt werden."

(Dt.Bundespost)

Ausfuhrbestimmungen sind Erklärungen, mit denen man Erklärungen erklärt.

(Wirtschaftsministerium)

Der Tod stellt aus versorgungsrechtlicher Sicht die stärkste Form der Dienstunfähigkeit dar.

(Bundeswehrverwaltung)

...and here I was thinking *I* am the poor slob who has to wade through BS-bingo phrasing...

p.s.: hope you liked them

[RMC]

I always liked the Stummels. Of course I used them incorrectly and they died in droves, but that's not their fault.

As indicated in jasper's link above, we are now, some 20 years on, getting around to a real HE round for the 120.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by RMC:

I always liked the Stummels. Of course I used them incorrectly and they died in droves, but that's not their fault.

a morbid race between dieing first or running out of ammo first, even with that limited ammo loadout a very close race to the bottom...

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by jrcar:

The use of the MGS is as an inexpensive direct fire weapon to engage machine guns, crew served weapons, buildings and bunkers. The other option is the use of ATGW (which is expensive and not as effective as 105mm direct fire).

In the modern world of "rock, paper sissors" tactics:

Infantry advance.

MG/crew served weapons kill/supress infantry.

MGS (or tank) kill/supress MG/crew served weapons.

Tank kills MGS/Tank.

ATGW kills tank.

that rock-paper-scissors is fine except it doesn't really take much to make it already break off in line 3 where the MGS comes in.

because it doesnt take much "crew served weapon" to take out the Strykeout.

just let it stumble over some stray syrian S-60 57mm AA gun piece or some such.

[hellfish]

Wouldn't a Brad be hurting if it ran into an S-60 too? IIRC it only protects against 23mm.

[lucero1148]

Thanks very informative info on RC vs 105 round capabilities. Always learning something new!

Patrick