Chemical Warfare?

[J Ruddy]

I haven't seen any posts on this yet. I'm not sure if it fits in to a Company sized wargame or not.

Specifically I was thinking of Modern and WWI combat, and simple chemical weapons. Will CMX2 be able to handle clouds of chemical weaponry?

If I remember my NBC training correctly, if a suspected biological or chemical attack was happening one poor sucker would be selected to be the canary, I think the term was half-down or something, and would not have his mask on while the rest of the section sat and waited to see if he would do the 'funky chicken'

Anyways, is it in the scope of CMX2?

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

If I remember my NBC training correctly, if a suspected biological or chemical attack was happening one poor sucker would be selected to be the canary, I think the term was half-down or something, and would not have his mask on while the rest of the section sat and waited to see if he would do the 'funky chicken'

Anyways, is it in the scope of CMX2?

Yeah, our Drill Sergeants told us that too, but don't believe them. They're always trying to scare trainees. There are safer and more accurate (able to test for low level exposure) ways to test for chemical weapons than using a man as a canary.

[Barrold]

Maybe we did things different in the Navy, but I have never heard of such a tactic in my NBC training. Since I was a radcon dude, I figure my training was as comprehensive as those on the recieving end of the stuff would get too.

As for CMx2, I have no friggin idea. Did WWI get into the Top 5? They said Cold War wasn't so I dunno.

What about nukes? Turn 1 ---> Game Ends

It would be worse than that in-game movie showing the 500lb bomb wiping out some guy's entire force that was posted long ago.

BDH

[J Ruddy]

Keep in mind I'm a Canuck and this was about 15 years ago - I'm hoping things have changed.

Bah - I was a radio technician - what the hell did I know, I just sat in my 5/4 ton playing with broken radios... lots of broken radios...

I don't even know how they'd model Chemical agents, I've been thinking about it for a couple of hours now, and I think it is a non-starter.

If we were talking at a batallion scale, things would be different

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

Keep in mind I'm a Canuck and this was about 15 years ago - I'm hoping things have changed.

I doubt it -- you've still got to have unmasking drills (unless you live in air-conditioned luxury like the Navy). When you've checked the NAIAD, mucked about with the detector paper, and managed to convince yourself that it's safe to breathe, you still have two blokes unmask first, just in case the NAIAD's on the blink and the detector paper is past its sell-by date.

Originally posted by J Ruddy:

I don't even know how they'd model Chemical agents, I've been thinking about it for a couple of hours now, and I think it is a non-starter.

If they modelled the downwind drift and dispersion of smoke, then they'd get a lot of the hard bits of CW modelling for free. It should not be too hard to find LCt50 data for the most popular agents.

The trouble with CW, as I see it, is that chemical weapons are, to a first approximation, useless. Artillery carrier shells are not a great way to build up effective concentrations, and the incapacitating effects of most agents, at least prior to the nerve gases, is long compared to the typical duration of a CM battle.

All the best,

John.

[hellfish]

They told us that too - but I think it was actually true. Someone's gotta be the first one to take off the mask, right? I still think 90% of the NBC training is there just to make you feel better. In an actual attack, you're screwed whether or not you can get your mask on in 9 seconds. It's the other 15 minutes you need to don the rest of your MOPP gear that'll kill you.

They also told us in basic that we'd have to stick ourselves with atropine autoinjectors filled with salt peter right before our first weekend pass so we couldn't get VD in Columbus, GA.

[Barrold]

I am not sure I would describe an 110 degree F engineroom as air-conditioned luxury, but for the most part Mr. Salt's point is well taken.

In boot camp we were certainly subjected to the CS gas chamber and had to take our masks off once inside to get the full effects of the irritant.

We drilled fairly frequently for NBC attacks, but I think perhaps the fact that we were much more capable in terms of decontamination equipment helped make it less useful to risk personnel to check an all clear.

In terms of CMx2 though, I don't really see the benefit to modelling it on this scale.

BDH

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

The trouble with CW, as I see it, is that chemical weapons are, to a first approximation, useless. Artillery carrier shells are not a great way to build up effective concentrations, and the incapacitating effects of most agents, at least prior to the nerve gases, is long compared to the typical duration of a CM battle.

All the best,

John.

1) You owe me a turn.

2) Artillery can, if fired in sufficient quantity, build up effective concentrations of most WWI and WWII agents, for local effect. In WWI, artillery fired concentrations primarily for flank protection and counter-battery work. Its problem was that it took too long a time to build up the concentration when other, quicker methods such as the Livens Projector was available. The problem was that most of those quicker methods, were much shorter ranged than artillery, which is why quite sensibly, it was primarily used on the longer-ranged tasks mentioned. There are examples written about in a book I have on WWI chemical warfare where artillery though, was very effective in producing quick, localised concentrations when fired to counter counter-attacks.

3) In a WWII game, I'd expect to see chemical warfare limited to scenarios in China - where the Japanese did utilise chemical weapons. However, they were primarily short-ranged, tactical weapons, such as grenades, grenade-launchers, etc., which would make them ideally suited to CM. The results tended to be more moral than physical though, again, because it was difficult to produce large concentrations using such methods. Invariably only a few casualties would result and the rest of the defenders would flee.

[Kurtz]

Chemical warfare has (at least) three aims:

1. Inflict casualties.

2. Deny the use of certain areas by targeting those areas with persistent agent (e.g. mustard gas).

3. Lower the combat value of the targeted troops by forcing them to use chemical protection gear and make necessary preparations for a chemical attack.

It's interesting that similar effects can be achieved by mines.

But I think chemical warfare in a company-level game comes fairly long down the feature list.

[ September 17, 2005, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Kurtz ]

[edward_n_kelly]

British (and I assume other combatents) used CW grenades in the last year of WWI. They were very handy in clearing dugouts.

The Livens projector attack was a extremely effective in producing gas concentrations. They surprised the British with their effictiveness and the Germans even more.

There was a case where a Livens barrage of mustard gas was fired prior to an attack (from memory part of Passchendale).

The Livens projector attack was a extremely effective in producing gas concentrations. They surprised the British with their effectiveness and the Germans even more.

There was a case where a Livens barrage of mustard gas was fired prior to an attack (from memory part of Passchendale). When the ground was taken and examined and unsuspected deep dugout was found. Inside was a Regimental command post - and the bodies were in a neat sequence. Nearest to the door did not have their mask cases unhitched, next from the door were those who had drawn their masks, next group had their masks partially on while the final group furthest from the door had masks on but had died from inhalation prior to masking or their filters were overwhelmed by the concentration (and the German mask was more prone to this that the Small Box Respirator).

It was some distance behind the line of impact of the projectiles but the concentration was lethal for miles down wind.

Remember attacks of these natures involved hundreds if not thousands of Livens Projectors.

The Germans copied the Livens Projector (after all it started life as an oild drum that fired a smaller one!) but never understood how to use them (needed to be in concentration). They feared the sudden Liven attacks.....

Edward

Edited: Coz I cocked it up badly!

[ September 19, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: edward_n_kelly ]