Interview with Steve Grammont

[Michael Dorosh]

I thought perhaps the Outerboard would be interested in a transcript of the latest interview with Steve of Battlefront:

Audio of actual interview available here (MP3 file)

From the website of the Justicar here.

Joe Shaw: This is your beloved Justicar for Life of the Peng Challenge Thread, Joe Shaw, and yes I've been gone but now...I'm...back. Welcome everyone to the interview portion of the Peng Challenge Thread Podcast, with us today we have a real honour, a real treat; we've got Steve of Battlefront.com, formerly Big Time Software. Steve, welcome to the Podcast.

Steve Grammont: Well, I...I'm very pleased to be here.

JS: Pleased! And honoured, is what you meant to say, too.

SG: Well, if you heard some hesitation I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

JS: I'm sure not. Very good. Steve, we do want to thank you for taking the time this evening. Just some background questions, first. You know, when...how did you and Charles (Moylan) meet?

SG: Ah, the stuff of legends.

JS: Yeah, really.

SG: If I can remember correctly, it was 1994 and I was an independent game publisher at...on my own, or developer on my own, and I was trying to get a contract with Avalon Hill, which Charles worked for at the time. He and I did not know each other, but Keith Zabalaoui, who most of you will probably know from Close Combat, put me in touch with Charles. I called his phone number and it was disconnected.

JS: (laughter) What does that tell you?

SG: Yeah, I know! That was exactly what I thought, I was like...well, he's gone! Then somebody told me "No, no...he moved! He's in Boston!" And I lived in Boston. Oh boy, isn't that a coincidence. Finally got his number, turned out he lived three blocks away from me.

JS: (laughter) Okay.

SG: So, we got together and the rest is history.

JS: Really. Do you remember when you first thought of doing Combat Mission? What was the genesis of that idea?

SG: Well, he and I had...he had...he and I got together when he was first working on Over The Reich! and he was trying to figure out what he was going to do when he was done with that and Achtung Spitfire! which was actually, I believe, the one that came before that. And so, the whole thing with Avalon Hill and Atomic Games had just fallen apart and they were really anxious to have someone do a computer version of Squad Leader, or Advanced Squad Leader. That's how Charles got interested in it; he already had many of the game modules and so he said "yeah sure, that sounds like another....that sounds like a good way to go. So..."

JS: (laugher) Little did you know!

SG: ...yeah, so he started bouncing ideas off of me while we were doing our weekly beer night at the local watering hole. Geez, I wish we'd saved the cocktail napkin - cause there really was a cocktail napkin.

JS: Was there really?

SG: Yes.

JS: No kidding!

SG: Not just a rumour; we actually had a cocktail napkin where things were sketched out on.

JS: Outstanding. Well, I've uh...you know, on behalf of....this sounds like fanboys, I know, but you know, we....in the Cesspool, we are...we ARE fans of Combat Mission, and I'm glad the two of you got together! Now let me just shift gears slightly here for a second. You know, I think a lot of us who have played computer games, or wargames, in the past, have the "dream game" in mind. So, if you could design any game on any subject, money no object, and you knew you could program it to do what you wanted it to do, what would it be?

SG: Well the funny thing is that before I did Combat Mission, I was a strategic level game guy...

JS: Really?

SG: ...not much interested in tactics. I mean, I knew all the weaponry and whatnot, and loved the history of it all, but I really wasn't all that interested in the tactics. So, I've kind of fallen into that since then. So if I had to make anything, it would be a strategic-level Eastern Front game.

JS: Okay.

SG: And that would...the reason why we haven't done that is...

JS: (laughs)

SG:....Man-oh-man, I don't think that would sell very well.

JS: (laughs)

SG: It would appeal to a very small, great, group of guys, and that would be about it.

JS: Yeah, understood. And money plays a role in all of this, that's for sure.

SG: Yeah.

JS: Well, let's get to the meat of the interview, now, the reason that you're really here, I mean, is because of the Cesspool and all of the strange and wonderous creatures who inhabit there. The first question I have to ask....rune of course has an NDA, a Non-Disclosure Agreement, with Battlefront and it is apparently heavy involved with doing...something...that he won't disclose. But, I mean...Steve! We're talking RUNE. What the hell were you thinking?

SG: The honest truth is that Charles and I each have some dark pasts, some skeletons in our closet(s), and unfortunately rune found out about some of these.

JS: Ahhhh...

SG: If you follow the logic of rune's evilness, you can see where that's going.

JS: Okay. You know, I firmly believe that photos CAN be faked.

SG: Yeah, well, I will say that some of them were quite creative, and weren't really all that original, but it's very difficult to prove that one...

JS: (laughs)

SG: ... in some circumstances, all you have to do is just throw the....you know, throw it out there and it takes on a life of its own...

JS: Well, just on behalf of the Cesspool, let me ask you, then, if you would be so kind as to label rune's scenarios very carefully, skull and bones, warnings, the whole shooting match. Okay?

SG: Yes, yes; rune is well known for...in internal development circles as breaking all - any parameters that are set to restrict the number of units, the amount of shells in the air at one time, whatever it may be - rune is there to make sure that they break, and fail miserably.

JS: Okay, fair enough. Steve, when you first saw the Peng Challenge Thread on the forum, in Seanachai's immortal "Peng, I Take Our Challenge Public" thread, do you recall what you thought when you first saw that?

SG: Uh...shut down the whole forum and never, ever speak of it ever again.

JS: (laughing) Try and get the "refreshing monkeys" back on contract, again?

SG: Oh yeah...yeah....Well, but the earlier incarnations of that group involved a certain band owned by a band shard...it was...it was a basically a threat and intimidation vehicle, and we were as threatened and intimidated by it...

JS and SG in unison: as anyone else.

JS: (laughing) Okay. Well, when you saw the three-hundred and eighty-seventh incarnation of the Peng Challenge Thread, do you recall what you thought?

SG: Yeah...that I was waking up from a bad dream and finding myself in an endless nightmare, and then I realized the endless nightmare was about one year away from ending, and didn't have anything to do with the Peng Thread...

JS: (laughing) Okay.

SG: ...I would say that, um, we think term limits would be really good for Cesspoolians.

JS: Except...except of course for the Justicar for Life of the Peng Challenge Thread...

SG: ...of course...

JS: FOR LIFE. You know.

SG: Of course.

JS: Okay, good. CM:SF is, as we all know, next on the agenda. So let's....forgive me, but I know that you're gonna answer this question honestly because this is the Peng Challenge Thread Podcast. It's a question that's been asked by everyone, it's on everyone's lips, I know you'll give us the answer that you have, and to be honest, dutiously (sic) avoided giving elsewhwere, so...CM:SF, Steve, what's going to be of interest to the Cesspool in that?

SG: Ah ha! Well, I have...I have given this some thought. And you did tip me off and say I should think about this one. And I at first...I really had no idea. I was thinking: there is no threads in it, there's really no verbal challenge built into the game, but I feel now having looked at it, that I think it's going to have a lot to do with

Cesspoolians playing Red on Red...

JS: (laughs)

SG: ...with IEDs and RPGs only. In a dense city, and I'm thinking about, you know... a battle lasting about an hour, and mostly collapsing buildings on their own troops.

JS: Okay, so you've seen some of the Ker Dessel scenarios then.

SG: Yes.

JS: Okay, good! Well, that's of interest to me, certainly. Oh, yeah, okay fine. When will CM:SF be ready...are you ready? We'll say it together...okay?

JS and SG: (in unison) When it's ready.

SG: (chuckles)

JS: Okay, there we go. Well, we got that out of the way then. Steve, you know, there....in a kind of serious thing on this, there have been any number of demands on the forum...for our removal. For the Peng Challenge Thread to be gone. And you have to, I think, your credit, refused steadfastly and been a ... been, if not an advocate for the Thread, certainly a champion of it. What do you think the Peng Challenge Thread brings to the table for Battlefront?

SG: Umm, money mostly, because every time that people want to close it down, 20 bucks here, 30 bucks here from various Cesspoolians, and, you know...it stays alive. So...

JS: No kidding...

SG:...you know, easy money.

JS: And you know, as long as we keep that Paypal account open....

SG: Yes!

JS: ...yeah. Okay. Good.

SG: Well, I was also thinking there's the old saying, "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer..."

JS: (laughs)

SG: ...and in the case of the Cesspool, "keep them all in a little tiny thread so they won't scare away paying customers."

JS: (laughing) And a great point that is! Okay, and of course, Steve, Combat Mission itself, you know, it seems like I say this on every Podcast, but it is true, it's what brought us all together. It is, in my opinion, the best wargame I've ever played, and that includes board games and miniatures, you name it, over all the years. You know, I think that your success, at Battlefront, has encouraged a lot of other "garage designers" out there, people like maybe Mad Minute Games or Histwar Les Grognards...I'm sure I'm butchering that...what advice would you give others? That wanted to get into this area?

SG: My standard answer to that is...we do get that quite frequently...is: just don't do it.

JS: (laughs)

SG: And I'm not even joking.

JS: (laughing) Oh good.

SG: It's extremely hard, the risks are...astronomically high. The payout is...even if you get through all that, it's probably not going to be very good, and the job security is about one day.

JS: Yeah.

SG: So...if you're not completely dedicated, and you really don't have the talent...and what I mean by talent is...a good design and the ability to carry it out. A lot of us have some great ideas, but if you don't have a programmer, they aren't going anywhere.

JS: Right.

SG: So, half-hearted commitments and/or moderate skills are just...you can't just bull your way through it.

JS: Okay. Well, you know, with all the time that you've had with Combat Mission, and I know for us on the Thread, it's been six, seven years now, for you it has clearly stretched beyond that, what do you think is the proudest moment with your time with Combat Mission?

SG: I think the proudest time would be when, you know....we had no idea how this was going to sell. We panicked about six...probably about six different times during the initial development thinking that we were just fooling ourselves and we were going to live to regret every minute we were spending on this thing, and...when we started...when we did the Beta Demo we realized that we were on to something. We weren't sure that we could actually sell it, so I'd say the proudest moment was when we had verification that not only have we designed the game that we wanted, and the game that gamers wanted, but we also had the ability to sell it, which was about in the second month of really....because we had sold more in the second month (of release) than we had expected to sell in...it's lifetime.

JS: Wow.

SG: And that...it both...it basically just proved that we were on the right track both with the development end and with the publishing end.

JS: Outstanding. Well, then, I think that's...I can certainly understand that. I know all of us that were fans of CM and had high hopes for it were buoyed immediately by the Beta Demo, and just couldn't get enough of it. This is my own personal plug, okay? American Civil War, or Napoleonics, on a WE-GO basis. Okay? Just kind of keep it in the back of your mind...

SG: We'll keep it in mind.

JS: ....there you go. Okay.

SG: Yeah, we'll whirl that around there.

JS: All right. Do you have a favourite CM anecdote or a moment, either from your own or from somebody else's...

SG: Yeah, I mean...I...Geez, you know...when you sit down and you think about all the games you played, the fact that you can even remember a game that you played...

JS: Isn't that something?

SG: ...is amazing. But I gotta say, my two favourites go back to the original AAR Battle...Alpha Build...battle between Fionn and Martin (Moon).

JS: Mm-hmm.

SG: And, I mean, that was the first glimpse that anybody had of the game. We had screenshots and everything. Somebody, I think saved the whole thing and has got it archived somewhere.

JS: Wow.

SG: Well, watching Fionn move a halftrack and having a lucky eighty...eighty-one millimetre round land right in the middle of it...

JS: (laughs)

SG: ...and Martin having a ... in the same game, having pulled a tank back behind some trees to try to reserve it, because it was his last one left; he was hoping to get some flank shots, and Fionn snuck a half of a squad through...through the trees and pounded it with a Panzerfaust...

JS: (laughs)

SG: ... and that was, I think the very first Panzerfaust kill in an actual game.

JS: Had to be great. Yeah.

SG: Yeah...there was no A.I. at that point so we had to wait for two people to play it. (chuckles)

JS: (laughing) Okay. Um...the clown car. Sd...I think it was a Sd Kfz...

SG: Yes, it was.

JS: ...you remember that one? Yeah? Was that the funniest bug, or were there others that were even better than that?

SG: You know that....that's a good question. Uh, I am sure that there were some that were even funnier. By funny, I mean from your perspective. From our perspective, it was more like maddening.

JS: (laughing) Oh!

SG: But the clown car was, uh...definitely more colourful.

JS: Well then, I think that from the screenshot, that we had of it, and everything, I just...I couldn't get over that. Okay, you did say that CM:SF was coming out in December, right?

SG: Yes, but as usual, I did not specify what year.

JS: Damn. Well, it was worth a shot.

SG: (laughs)

JS: Okay, Steve, and the way that we end everything, what is your real name?

SG: My real name is Chuck Biscuits.

JS: (laughing) Okay.

SG: And I bear no relation to the drummer of the same name.

JS: (laughing) Of course not.

SG: (laughs)

JS: Seriously!

SG: Oh...uh....

JS: Yeah, I'm sorry...

SG: Uh...Steve Grammont.

JS: Okay, Steve, and where do you live?

SG: (silent)

JS: Approximately? Just a general location.

SG: I live in the woods of Maine.

JS: (laughing) Okay. Out there in Maine, then. Great. Steve, um. You know, once again, I cannot tell you how much we appreciate the game, the hard work that you've put in, and the real dedication that both you and Charles, and everyone at Battlefront, has shown, from Moon to Madmatt, to even rune. Well,

SG: ...well, no, I didn't think you were gonna...

JS: ...well, that's not right...No, um, but a great crew, a great deal of dedication and a true love for the genre, so we do appreciate it, keep going, we...I know that we're going to be buying CM:SF as soon as it rolls off the presses, and then we'll be looking for all of the rest of your releases. Best of luck to you, and Charles, and thank you again for joining the Podcast.

SG: Well, and thank you very much for having me.

JS: Okay, bud. Bye-bye now.

SG: Bye.

[ October 23, 2006, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[V]

Thanks.

[SirReal]

The FOOL! He told us his name and location! HAHAA! Expect CM:SF release date to be announced imminently.

[Boo Radley]

Shaw sounds so much more professional when you can't actually hear his voice.

[WineCape]

Can we have another Podcast? I don't understand American Twang. Reading the transcript hurts me eyes too...

[Salkin]

Great podcast !

//Salkin

[Battlefront.com]

You think so? I tried my best, but man... that Shaw guy didn't give me much to work with!

Steve

P.S. Note lack of bolding and smiley. This ain't the Cesspool you know!

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

You think so? I tried my best, but man... that Shaw guy didn't give me much to work with!

Steve

P.S. Note lack of bolding and smiley. This ain't the Cesspool you know!

Hey pal, if it weren't for my brilliant questions and witty rejoinders you'd have had everyone asleep by the 15 second mark.

And this is the tanks I get ... get it ... tanks ... thanks ... see what I mean.

Joe

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

You think so? I tried my best, but man... that Shaw guy didn't give me much to work with!

Steve

P.S. Note lack of bolding and smiley. This ain't the Cesspool you know!

Hey pal, if it weren't for my brilliant questions and witty rejoinders you'd have had everyone asleep by the 15 second mark.

And this is the tanks I get ... get it ... tanks ... thanks ... see what I mean.

Joe </font>

[Boo Radley]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

You think so? I tried my best, but man... that Shaw guy didn't give me much to work with!

Steve

You have to cut him a litle slack though. He was working under a handicap.

His banjo was in the shop.

[Darkmath]

CMSF (Combat Mission: Sketchy Forever) will be released "when it's done"