Infantry, trenches, waypoints & cover

[Scipio]

I have ordered a group to follow a trench, since they were under fire:

Have a guess what happend:

By the way, it's often rather difficult that 3D trenches are optically removed already at close/medium distance.

[Huntarr]

MOVE

Infantry - This is the standard “move from A to B” command usually used in situations where enemy contact is not expected or unlikely. It is fairly slow, maintains unit cohesion, pretty good all-round awareness (but no anticipation of imminent contact), and is not tiring to infantry.

ASSAULT

This command is available for infantry squads only, and requires a certain minimum headcount (in other words, you cannot use assault if you only have two or three people active). It instructs the squad to conduct a so called “leapfrog” movement, which is executed by splitting the squad into a movement element and a firing element. The moving element advances at Fast speed while the firing element remains stationary and provides covering fire. After the movement elements stops (ending the first “leap”), the roles switch and the movement element (now the firing element) provides covering fire while the firing element (now the moving element) advances, reaches and overtakes the firing element, and arrives at the next “leap”. This procedure repeats until the squad has reached its designated objective location.

Assault is usually executed in the face of enemy fire (usually from the front) and is a good compromise of security and forward movement while maintaining unit cohesion and limiting fatigue. The disadvantage is that it is a fairly slow form of advance and that it requires a certain minimum unit experience to use it.

You might have used ASSAULT instead. I do this same maneuver in Breech and it works well. I get better results using this instead of casually strolling down the trench

[Dirtweasle]

Assault in a trench you already occupy? Not very intuitive though, and expends a lot of energy if I am not mistaken. Move is about the only formation / order type where you can keep up even a slow pace for any distance.

[MrSpkr]

DW, I've seen the same thing. Mine was actually a little worse -- I ordered an infantry squad to hustle out of a Stryker that I had thoughfully backed up to a trench in which the men could take cover after exiting.

Three men tried running around the sides of the Stryker (towards the front, where I KNEW the enemy was located) and got shot up. Of the remainder, about a third refused to take cover in the trench, even after coming under fire, and eventually died.

Sigh.

Steve

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

DW, I've seen the same thing. Mine was actually a little worse -- I ordered an infantry squad to hustle out of a Stryker that I had thoughfully backed up to a trench in which the men could take cover after exiting.

Three men tried running around the sides of the Stryker (towards the front, where I KNEW the enemy was located) and got shot up. Of the remainder, about a third refused to take cover in the trench, even after coming under fire, and eventually died.

Sigh.

Steve

Yep, happens to me too. Quite frustrating.

Not having served I cannot be sure for myself, but video I have seen of soldiers leads me to think they can run out of a Stryker pretty fast and go right out back in a specific direction. Seems like they don't have to run around the side and check the tires before heading out.

[Wiggum]

...we all can pray for 1.05...

[Ritter_85]

..pray for 1.05 indeed...for the tires to be in good condition...

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Huntarr:

You might have used ASSAULT instead. I do this same maneuver in Breech and it works well. I get better results using this instead of casually strolling down the trench

I think the problem he had was with his infantry not following his waypoints very well, and not paying attention to good cover while on the move. It's a bug experienced under all movement commands, not just move.

[Huntarr]

MOVE uses a spread out formation during its move. It uses standard (non contact) walking patrol formation. It is not designed to be used in combat or moving in a trench. If you want to complain that something is not working as intended then don't use a command that it was not intended for. I have stated that ASSAULT does work, since he was under fire from the other trench (clearly seen in the 1st photo) if you choose to ignore that that is your choice, but don't complain when you get your ass killed.

[Lurker765]

So how do you get your men to move along a trench if you do not have the minimum headcount, are in a hurry, or do not have the necessary unit experience?

Are you really saying that you cannot issue the move command in a trench and expect your men to stay in the trench and move?

[Huntarr]

HUNT or QUICK

FAST is actually very good, your men run in a column.

The main thing was he was not suppressing the enemy, that is why he got shot. He also had enough men in that unsplit squad to perform ASSAULT

Edit: MOVE under the above situation with that large of a squad was going to spread it out.

[Dirtweasle]

Hunt except then you stop for a contact...

Slow / Sneak except then you'l tire out in under 60 seconds...

Beats me, because Assault is not always available, even if you buy into your premise Huntarr that it is appropriate.

[Dirtweasle]

Move Tactical is maybe a command option we are missing.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Move Tactical is maybe a command option we are missing.

Wouldn't formation moves cover it? Move Column, Move by Bounds, Move Line.

Something like that?

-dale

[Huntarr]

So weasle by your mindset because you clearly see an enemy before you started WALKING you don't expect him to shoot you because why? Because you just felt like you should be able to walk down the trench until you got closer to kill him. You think he is not going to shoot you? If you can not see that was a tactical mistake on the OP's part then that is your problem. You don't have to buy my premise, just keep on using MOVE because you think it should do something it does not, nor does it state in the manual otherwise.

[Lurker765]

Yes, you don't want quick or fast due to non-response to the environment since your men will die without slowing down from their movement path if it turns out a MG has LOF into the trench.

Hunt isn't appropriate since you don't want to stop and shoot, you want to move.

I just find it hard to believe that if you order your men to move in a trench they will crawl out of the trench and move through the open terrain under the rationale that they should spread out to avoid getting killed?

[Huntarr]

some of the reactions we see in CMSF, yes, but it is getting better every patch...

In the above tactical situation he should have not used MOVE. He did not want them to stop so no HUNT. He should have engaged that spotted infantry. IF he had to expose those troops to fire he should ASSAULT/QUICK. period

Am I saying that BFC should not tweak reactions and formations of some of the movement commands? No. Do not confuse piss poor tactics with piss poor use of the command interface they are not the same.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Huntarr:

So weasle by your mindset because you clearly see an enemy before you started WALKING you don't expect him to shoot you because why? Because you just felt like you should be able to walk down the trench until you got closer to kill him. You think he is not going to shoot you? If you can not see that was a tactical mistake on the OP's part then that is your problem. You don't have to buy my premise, just keep on using MOVE because you think it should do something it does not, nor does it state in the manual otherwise.

My but you're an unpleasant person, are you this over-bearing in real life?

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Move Tactical is maybe a command option we are missing.

Wouldn't formation moves cover it? Move Column, Move by Bounds, Move Line.

Something like that?

-dale </font>

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Lurker765:

Yes, you don't want quick or fast due to non-response to the environment since your men will die without slowing down from their movement path if it turns out a MG has LOF into the trench.

Hunt isn't appropriate since you don't want to stop and shoot, you want to move.

I just find it hard to believe that if you order your men to move in a trench they will crawl out of the trench and move through the open terrain under the rationale that they should spread out to avoid getting killed?

I'd agree with that.

[Scipio]

Huntarr, you are completly wrong. It absolutly doesn't matter what kind of movement order I give: the group always leaves the trench, what makes absolutly no sense. For the files: I have tested fast, quick & assault. Hunt doesn't makes any sense, since the unit has enemies in LOS and stops immidiatly, except I restrict the covered area, what's not really a good idea on attack.

You don't need any military training to know that it's better not to leave the trench when the air contains lead.

[Other Means]

I think the core of the matter is; what would you do on a battlefield. I think the only thing that would get me out of that trench is Huntarr's:

TBH, I'd like the movement commands to be things like:

</font>

• On the double (Direct to the waypoint as fast as possible)</font>
• Make best speed (To the waypoint with a small deviation to cover)</font>
• Cautious (In as much cover as possible, route can be circuitous)</font>
• Move to contact (Skirmish line, small deviation to cover)</font>
• Assault (Direct to the waypoint in bounds, the lead elements to be seeking the enemy and returning fire on contact, the firebase auto area-firing where the lead element shoots)</font>

I'd also like the route to be highlighted as soon as the waypoint is placed - this alone would save a lot of heartache.

[Dirtweasle]

Those commands makes sense too, thing is right now the only movement option that wont wear a unit into dust within no time at all is standard MOVE.

With yours how long can an Infantryman in all the gear they have keep going without getting exhausted?

Is there a table that shows how far or long for the existing commands?

[thewood]

While only conjecture, it may be obvious what the problem is. The squad is trying to maintain a formation around an action spot. I wonder where the action spot is relative to the trench and waypoints. This is forcing some or all members to move outside the trench. The priority of the squad is to maintain organization around an action spot vs. logical movement and self preservation.

You can rationalize it all you want around how movement commands are issued, but it is once again obvious that the waypoints followed the trench.

The solution that no one wants, but may be easiest is to only allow waypoints to be on the action spots. It will allow the orders to synch with the graphical representation. This would allow you to better control unit movement in trenches and built up areas.

It would also key in scenario designers to only put certain terrain in certain places to line up with action spots.

I do think this would not be a good solution from a realism perspective, but would alleviate a lot of frustration.

[Childress]

Giving them a limted cover arc, maybe?