March to slaughter, my mindless automatons!

JonS · September 7, 2007

100

The_Capt · September 8, 2007

101..damn said I wasn't going to post again but it is like honey to me....

molotov_billy · September 8, 2007

Yuck. Once again, you're replying to arguments and people that don't even exist. I now realize why you don't quote messages when you reply - you haven't actually addressed a single point that I've made in nearly a dozen posts. I've repeated myself so many times, I feel like some sort of kindergarten teacher - people have dumped a mountain of data at your feet that back up the assertions that I've made, none of which have anything to do with tactics, and yet you continue to lecture about issues and ideas that nobody has concerns for.

Originally posted by The_Capt:
My last post on this thread, cause lets face it we are really going nowhere.

There's actually a lot of great info in this thread from those who do care about improving the game. The data is there if someone cares to look at it.

For those that are interested I am going to open up a thread on the Tactics Forum and the opening scenario will be the blind corner. I have run this test thru several iterations and I can give you solutions that won't get your troops killed in the manner described when we started this..

For the nth time, not the task at hand.

While I give you no ground on a unit turning a blind corner at a jog..use hunt and they will live..

Straw men again. You're arguing about something that nobody's contesting. Hunt has it's own problems, which I've already described. I'm tried of repeating myself.

I did notice a very strange thing when two squads are moving past each other. At "Fast" as per the manual they will charge at full speed and ignore just about everything..so the two squads run through each other...hmm..odd.

Then at Quick, they did the same...again..odd..

There you go. I've been saying it over and over and over - regardless of tactical situations - units are not responding as they should to nearby threats.

For Fast and Quick I can see how a reckless run in the face of the enemy can get a squad killed no matter how it is visually portrayed.

Again, who exactly are you arguing with here? Where is this even coming from?

For those still frustrated, I would recommend you stop fighting the game and learn to play within it. Before you come on the forum and scream "bug", take a step back and ask yourself if it is a bug or just poor play.

Nobody's fighting the game. We're observing bugs that have come up during play and we're letting the developers know about them. Bugs that you yourself have confirmed and seen!

Turn this thing around. If you have a squad in a static position and the enemy can turn the corner at a jog, stop on a dime and effectively wipe you out we would have the thread "Sit there and die my useless slothmen!!".

Ugh, more straw men. Please point out the person in this thread that requests anything close to the scenario you describe.

[ September 07, 2007, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: molotov_billy ]

The_Capt · September 8, 2007

Ok Mr Billy I was going to let this go but I have run into your type time and time again on this board.

Lets go to 300 and then start another one...you and me back and forth till the end of days.

You Mr Billy are now my personal project.

In your opening post you described the problems you were seeing and finished with "absolute vapid nonsense"..hardly constructive criticism.

Now let walk thru you last post and your issues..I think a forensic analysis is required here.

"There's actually a lot of great info in this thread from those who do care about improving the game. The data is there if someone cares to look at it"

What in your opening post would indicate that you have the best intentions at heart? Would that be the indication that what you experienced was so bad you had to stop playing?

The pathetically poor description of what actually happened, no screen shots, squads regular, veteran..what, does not support your goodwill. Hell if you really want to play the professional critic, what time of day was it, where was the sun and how much sleep did your squad get in the last 48 hrs?

"You're arguing about something that nobody's contesting. Hunt has it's own problems, which I've already described. I'm tried of repeating myself"

I contest your last assertion. Hunt has problems of its own...well then in the interst of doing a service for BFC and greater community..plse enlighten us to what you see as a problem. While you are at it,you seen very quick to say what is wrong with the scenario you paint..what do you expect to happen when you send a section around a blind corner at a jog? Spell it out and maybe we can get Charles to get to work on it. You are trying to help after all.

"There you go. I've been saying it over and over and over - regardless of tactical situations - units are not responding as they should to nearby threats"

Lets break this one down. "Regardless of tactical situation" that would mean that in all of your observations of CMSF your troops have been wondering around as men blind. Never returned fire..never reported seeing the enemy. You experience has been seeing only blue indicators and them dying?

And while you are at, how should they respond to nearby threats..in your opinion? And while you are at it lets get some background on where this opinion is coming from. I assume from your posts and claims you have at least a decade in uniform,at least one combat tour under your belt and have designed at least one computer wargame. Plse fill us in on the details.

"Nobody's fighting the game. We're observing bugs that have come up during play and we're letting the developers know about them. Bugs that you yourself have confirmed and seen!"

No what you are doing is taking a small snippet of gameplay where the AI kicked your clock because you were sloppy and you are turning it into a development issue. I confirmed there may be an issue the Move order when two sections are coming at each other.

"Ugh, more straw men. Please point out the person in this thread that requests anything close to the scenario you describe."

I was trying to bring you along on a mental experiment by employing a hypothetical...I see that I failed.

Ok Mr Billy lets break down..again what you asked your troops to do in your opening post.

"The number one thing bothering me right now - just quit a game because of it, absolutely frustrating. It's happened in both of the scenarios I've played today, and it seems completely unavoidable in MOUT.

Squads don't stop moving when they're taking fire/casualties. I had a squad moving under "quick" from point A to point B in an urban environment - as they turned a corner, each one of them in turn was mowed down by an enemy squad that was lying prone 10 feet away

Number 1 - you see people 10 feet away from you. My squad never spotted the enemy squad - though I knew they were there because of muzzleflashes.

They can spot a hidden ATGM team 500 meters away from them, but they don't spot a gaggle of syrians laying in the road *RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM*

Number 2 - the movement order was never cancelled, or halted. The entire squad, to the last man, walked into the ambush.

Number 3 - none of my men ever stop to return fire in this case, even when they spot the enemy team. If you HAVE to keep moving, why not fire while on the move to at least supress whoever's shooting at you? Better yet, why the hell are you running towards a pile of bodies and the sound of machinegun fire a couple of feet away from you?"

Hmm...well tough to know where to start...ok first off it is "avoidable" I proved it repeatedly.

You had a "squad" moving "quick" from A to B in an urban evironment...well that is bad from the start but let me try to describe.

Ok you have a section of 9 men and you are told to jog around a corner. You have 40-60 lbs on your back, you stink and even though you have ballistic googles on so shards of stone and glass do not blind you at a bad moment, you swear your freakin eyelids are sweating, cause you keep getting stinging drops on your eyeballs.

You have at least 7 spots on your body that are ridiculously hot and red. Head, pits, crotch, behind your knees and feet. That damn radio never shuts up and every now and then you get to hear friends dying.

You are dehydrated and probably haven't slept right in at least a week.

So in short you are on auto pilot. Meanwhile you live in an environment design specifically to kill you. On rooftops, windows and doors. Around corners and even in manholes are potentially lethal actions waiting to happen. In short by this time you have the psyche of a shut-in but for a living you get to go door to door looking for people who want to kill you.

Now Mr Billy, you are out in front of the rest of the platoon and company, right at the FLOT..the worst place on the planet for a guy with flag flashes on you shoulder to be.

Then over the radio the call to get your section ass up Al Ackber street right freakin now comes over the net.

For a few second you ponder...what the hell is going on? Maybe the boss knows something you don't...all that blue/red force tracking **** is suppose to be foolproof...even thought the Coy SSM thinks it is total crap. Maybe if you get out of this you can get a day job on the other side of the table selling this crap to defence buyers but for now you have to live through the next 10 mins.

So like a good leader you take point. At this juncture the vets in the squad know something is up cause you aren't suppose to take point. Their eyes widen slightly..a raised eyebrow here and there. Of course they are just as tired as you are..

"Get the f*ck up gents and follow me" you say cause that is what you are suppose to say. At this point even the FNGs are starting to look a little nervous.

You give the hand signal to move at the double..no ack ack formation or street crossing drill..just move now..with a purpose. Your guys are well trained and drilled, they don't ask or bitch. They ensure their rifle straps are secure around their arms, safety off. Each mag they have has a tracer round every 10th round so they know when they are Winchester when the last one goes..the vets actually have armour piercing every round because they know that steel jacket **** will shatter on these damn "mud and stone" buildings.

This is all happening in about 2-3 seconds.

Against your better judgement you bolt around the blind corner. At this moment in time...this thing is the hardest thing you have ever done and will be until the next time you have to do it.

Your stomach, chest and groin tense in expectation of the bullet. You have seen other guys get hit by this point and you know damn well it stings.

You turn the corner chest facing forward. Back in the day you were taught to come side on but with Gen 2 body armour frontal is the way to go.

If you are lucky the sun is to the side because that can create some crazy shadows that might just buy you some time. If it is above and behind you, you're a figure 11 target. If it is in front of you..you are blind when trying to check the rooftops.

Rooftops and second story windows are the first place you are looking, they give great coverage of the street and the beaten zone of an MG is tighter from above.

Time at this moment is slowing...you are looking up, sweeping left to right. You are looking for a flash, a muzzle and if you are extremely lucky a silouette.

You manage to get about 3 strides around the corner. You can hear your former point man right behind you, just a scuff on the ground.

You see the flash first, no time for sound. Next thing is your legs stop working and you are down.

The guy behind you and the two guys after him have already rounded the corner because if you are going to be stupid you may as well get all the guns out early.

If your section is lucky the number four guy may get a look at who shot him.

The problem is that the human mind is not designed for what you or your men are going through. It was designed for higher functions but when faced with certain death it pretty much shuts down. Combine this with the fact you are dead tired and the result is what we in the business call combat shock.

We train the lads to be able to handle it to a point. Come under fire at 100m plus and they are good. Even arty at that range. But we are basically animals and when the danger get up close and personal we start to shut down. The only way to get around this is with hand to hand training...something discouraged as it breaks people. Boxers do well in this environment because they have trained their minds to work at a higher level by layering drills and reactions on top of each other.

Your section has what is has. The first four men are cut down but to the 2 i/c in the 1-2 seconds he has to make a judgement..when the last clear order he got was "move now with a purpose" may very well mistake the actions for taking cover...hell he may only see one guy go down.

The rest of the section will move around the corner as a team. This is like an airshow crash where the whole team follows the lead into the ground.

If your enemy is any good he may even wait until you are all around the corner. He is under what cover he can find...hell even a dusty blanket will work.

In short order your entire section is dead or dying.

This is real life. Now unless you can counter with some basis of real world experience do not even begin to lecture me on urban combat.

As to the game well it will remain such. In reality I would be relieving you of Pl Comd for giving such a stupid order.

And if we are going to wave real world around CMSF is probably too generous to players who play sloppy and the force ratios you need in urban conflict too narrow but I think we all want to have fun with a game and not try and train for war.

Now Mr Billy please point out my strawman

"a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted"

Pandur · September 8, 2007

Hunt has problems of its own...well then in the interst of doing a service for BFC and greater community..plse enlighten us to what you see as a problem.

i posted this allready at page 3 here.

look up this thread and you see a big problem of hunt, next to the "no reaction" behaviour to incoming fire.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=71;t=000074;p=1#000008

Mud · September 8, 2007

Another thread has some graphic examples of odd movement and spotting problems involving infantry.

There's the case of a completely stationary soldier perhaps 1-2m behind an enemy ATGM team, aware of an enemy presence (question mark contact) there, who hasn't actually spotted them.

There's also a report of a Syrian soldier who Hunt'd past 2 Bradleys 8-10' away from him without noticing. Seems there might be some remaining weirdness here...

molotov_billy · September 8, 2007

What in your opening post would indicate that you have the best intentions at heart? Would that be the indication that what you experienced was so bad you had to stop playing?

It was an accurate description of the level of frustration one experiences when encountering that type of stuff. It's appropriate to the discussion and helps convey a level importance for the issue, at least in my opinion. Others should do the same so that a developer can create an accurate picture of his or her customers' experiences. Frustration is the last thing you'd want people to experience while playing a video game.

The pathetically poor description of what actually happened, no screen shots, squads regular, veteran..what, does not support your goodwill.

My opening post and follow up posts created an accurate picture of the scenario I experienced. If people such as yourself had wanted additional info, I provided it. I'm still open to further questions if anybody wants additional information for the repro of these bugs.

Hell if you really want to play the professional critic, what time of day was it, where was the sun and how much sleep did your squad get in the last 48 hrs?

It was daylight during the scenario. The squad in question had no fatigue - they had just exited a stryker vehicle.

I contest your last assertion. Hunt has problems of its own...well then in the interst of doing a service for BFC and greater community..plse enlighten us to what you see as a problem.

I've already provided the information that I have on the "Hunt" command, and so have a couple of other folks within this thread. In fact, two others replied to your post with additional info on their experiences with "Hunt" before I could even get to this reply. The information is there, if you wish to see it.

While you are at it,you seen very quick to say what is wrong with the scenario you paint..what do you expect to happen when you send a section around a blind corner at a jog? Spell it out and maybe we can get Charles to get to work on it. You are trying to help after all.

I think I've already explained this several times, so I'll copy/paste from one of my other replies:

1) Squads failing to see opponents in the clear 10 feet away from them.

2) Failing to react to the sound of enemy fire 10 feet away from them.

3) Failing to react to squadmates being cut down.

Lets break this one down. "Regardless of tactical situation" that would mean that in all of your observations of CMSF your troops have been wondering around as men blind. Never returned fire..never reported seeing the enemy. You experience has been seeing only blue indicators and them dying?

Absolutely not. What it means is that I've seen similar things happening in every type of tactical situation - my troops often have trouble spotting things in every movement command, they often fail to respond to incoming fire, and they often fail to respond to their squadmates getting cut down around them. Many others have explained situations in which they've seen such activity, including yourself. The point is that my own command decisions are irrelevant to the bugs that I've observed, as they've happened during good decisions, bad decisions, and everything in between.

And while you are at, how should they respond to nearby threats..in your opinion? And while you are at it lets get some background on where this opinion is coming from. I assume from your posts and claims you have at least a decade in uniform,at least one combat tour under your belt and have designed at least one computer wargame.

My feedback on the matter has been three simple points:

A) Troops should react to enemy units 10 feet away from them.

Troops should react to enemy fire 10 feet away from them.

C) Troops should react to friendlies being slaughtered wholesale around them - i.e, not to continue on without thought, walking over bodies as if they didn't even exist.

No what you are doing is taking a small snippet of gameplay where the AI kicked your clock because you were sloppy and you are turning it into a development issue. I confirmed there may be an issue the Move order when two sections are coming at each other.

Again, the "small snippet" scenario was a specific example that highlighted each of the issues that I've experienced in a number of tactical situations. Others have experienced them as well, and provided numerous examples of each. I'm glad that you finally came around to at least see one of the issues that people have brought up.

I was trying to bring you along on a mental experiment by employing a hypothetical...I see that I failed.

So the people and ideas that you argue against are hypothetical? I don't understand. You'll have to explain that one a bit better.

Ok you have a section of 9 men and you are told to jog around a corner. You have 40-60 lbs on your back, you stink and even though you have ballistic googles on so shards of stone and glass do not blind you at a bad moment, you swear your freakin eyelids are sweating, cause you keep getting stinging drops on your eyeballs.

You have at least 7 spots on your body that are ridiculously hot and red. Head, pits, crotch, behind your knees and feet. That damn radio never shuts up and every now and then you get to hear friends dying.

You are dehydrated and probably haven't slept right in at least a week.

So in short you are on auto pilot. Meanwhile you live in an environment design specifically to kill you. On rooftops, windows and doors. Around corners and even in manholes are potentially lethal actions waiting to happen. In short by this time you have the psyche of a shut-in but for a living you get to go door to door looking for people who want to kill you.

Now Mr Billy, you are out in front of the rest of the platoon and company, right at the FLOT..the worst place on the planet for a guy with flag flashes on you shoulder to be.

Then over the radio the call to get your section ass up Al Ackber street right freakin now comes over the net.

For a few second you ponder...what the hell is going on? Maybe the boss knows something you don't...all that blue/red force tracking **** is suppose to be foolproof...even thought the Coy SSM thinks it is total crap. Maybe if you get out of this you can get a day job on the other side of the table selling this crap to defence buyers but for now you have to live through the next 10 mins.

So like a good leader you take point. At this juncture the vets in the squad know something is up cause you aren't suppose to take point. Their eyes widen slightly..a raised eyebrow here and there. Of course they are just as tired as you are..

"Get the f*ck up gents and follow me" you say cause that is what you are suppose to say. At this point even the FNGs are starting to look a little nervous.

You give the hand signal to move at the double..no ack ack formation or street crossing drill..just move now..with a purpose. Your guys are well trained and drilled, they don't ask or bitch. They ensure their rifle straps are secure around their arms, safety off. Each mag they have has a tracer round every 10th round so they know when they are Winchester when the last one goes..the vets actually have armour piercing every round because they know that steel jacket **** will shatter on these damn "mud and stone" buildings.

This is all happening in about 2-3 seconds.

Against your better judgement you bolt around the blind corner. At this moment in time...this thing is the hardest thing you have ever done and will be until the next time you have to do it.

Your stomach, chest and groin tense in expectation of the bullet. You have seen other guys get hit by this point and you know damn well it stings.

You turn the corner chest facing forward. Back in the day you were taught to come side on but with Gen 2 body armour frontal is the way to go.

If you are lucky the sun is to the side because that can create some crazy shadows that might just buy you some time. If it is above and behind you, you're a figure 11 target. If it is in front of you..you are blind when trying to check the rooftops.

Rooftops and second story windows are the first place you are looking, they give great coverage of the street and the beaten zone of an MG is tighter from above.

Time at this moment is slowing...you are looking up, sweeping left to right. You are looking for a flash, a muzzle and if you are extremely lucky a silouette.

You manage to get about 3 strides around the corner. You can hear your former point man right behind you, just a scuff on the ground.

You see the flash first, no time for sound. Next thing is your legs stop working and you are down.

The guy behind you and the two guys after him have already rounded the corner because if you are going to be stupid you may as well get all the guns out early.

If your section is lucky the number four guy may get a look at who shot him.

The problem is that the human mind is not designed for what you or your men are going through. It was designed for higher functions but when faced with certain death it pretty much shuts down. Combine this with the fact you are dead tired and the result is what we in the business call combat shock.

We train the lads to be able to handle it to a point. Come under fire at 100m plus and they are good. Even arty at that range. But we are basically animals and when the danger get up close and personal we start to shut down. The only way to get around this is with hand to hand training...something discouraged as it breaks people. Boxers do well in this environment because they have trained their minds to work at a higher level by layering drills and reactions on top of each other.

Your section has what is has. The first four men are cut down but to the 2 i/c in the 1-2 seconds he has to make a judgement..when the last clear order he got was "move now with a purpose" may very well mistake the actions for taking cover...hell he may only see one guy go down.

The rest of the section will move around the corner as a team. This is like an airshow crash where the whole team follows the lead into the ground.

If your enemy is any good he may even wait until you are all around the corner. He is under what cover he can find...hell even a dusty blanket will work.

In short order your entire section is dead or dying.

This is real life. Now unless you can counter with some basis of real world experience do not even begin to lecture me on urban combat.

As to the game well it will remain such. In reality I would be relieving you of Pl Comd for giving such a stupid order.

It's a wonderful story, but it doesnt address the issues that I brought up, and it doesnt address every situation in which it has come up. Furthermore, you're simply making up details as you go along, assuming the absolute worse in every single case. You conveniently forgot that the enemy squad in question was a mere 10 feet away, plainly visible to even the first person that would have rounded the corner. Your story does not explain to me why squads are blind and deaf, why they do not react to casualties, why they do not react to enemy gunfire, and why they run over the bodies of their own squads, to the last man, absolutely sucidially.

Take a look at Phillip's thread - we await your story explaining as to why the 30 ton infantry fighting vehicle was also invisible a mere 10 feet away, or why a US infantryman got so close to an enemy ATGM that their models were actually interpenetrating - and yet *neither* unit saw the other. As an additional element of flavor to your narrative - they were close enough for the soldier's M4 to be about two-thirds of the way up the ATGM gunner's anal cavity.

Maybe there's a fantastical, gut wrenching story behind every one of these occurences, or maybe, just *maybe* there are a couple of tweaks left in a game that was admitted - by the developers themselves - to be released early, not yet finished. Who knows.

Now Mr Billy please point out my strawman

"a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted"

Here's the defintion that made sense in this context:

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."

[ September 07, 2007, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: molotov_billy ]

Lindan · September 8, 2007

You guys have far too much time on your hands.

Huntarr · September 8, 2007

sshhh, I just started a new batch of popcorn.

I love my bed time stories with Capt, that last one was excellent by the way. I miss the "Mog"

September 8, 2007

Too much time... like a fox!

Seriously, though, we just want the bugs fixed. We're arguing because the bugs are legitimate and challenges to their legitimacy need to be responded to. molotov's been doing a good job, I think, keeping this one alive.

Panzer76 · September 8, 2007

Capt, seems to me your discussing your own made up issues, and not what Billy is saying. I suggest you give it a rest already.

Darkmath · September 8, 2007

If you get used to play with CMX1 mechanism, that is a whole squad getting slaughtered because of a run or advance order, then CMSF would not be different in this case : you give a quick order as you would do with advance or run in CMX1. Same results here, Capt is right.

Still, is this behaviour adequate with 1:1 representation, in which each soldier should quickly decide to react (they do react but too slowly than IRL) by their own when everybody else is getting killed under cloe heavy fire? Of course not, it doesn't.

Since CMSF was designed to be 1:1, some works in this area need to be done. In this case, molotov is right.

TheNathan · September 8, 2007

Ok you have a section of 9 men and you are told to jog around a corner. You have 40-60 lbs on your back, you stink and even though you have ballistic gogles on so shards of stone and glass do not blind you at a bad moment, you swear your freakin eyelids are sweating, cause you keep getting stinging drops on your eyeballs.