F16CJ, Time to long for New Approach to Trgt.?

[Taki]

As i played a Scenario i got Support from an F-16CJ Falcon. There where three types of Ammo.

I used a Battalion HQ unit with Clear Vis on Target calling in the Falcon Airstrik Area Target around some Houses.

It took about 8 Minutes till they got there. WIch was okay for me. It should be Designable for the Mission Designer because Jetplanes can circle sometimes close to the Targetand be there in Minutes after the Mission is assigned. But that wasnt my Intention to post here.

Problem is the Approach Time for a Second or Third Run on the Target.

It took 8 Minutes till Plane did First Strike = ok

It took nearly 3-5 Minutes to pull up small Circle and Strafe again = not okay.

Appoarch Time is way to long for my Taste. It should be much shorter. Also you should Assign what the F-16 should use on the Target. He first Strafd with all his Machine Guns then used the Rocket Pads (they dont have the Kill Radius they should have) and then the Mission was over (you remember Approach Time )

So is there someting beeing fixed in 1.06 or in Disscusion on APPROACH TIME for upcoming Patches?

[Omenowl]

Apaches time on target is just as bad. You figure the AH-64 would loiter around the battlefield so it should be very short, but it still takes 3-4 minutes.

[YankeeDog]

Be careful of drawing too many conculsions about how a weapons system should perform in real world conditions, based solely on its technical capabilities. I don't have any very specific knowledge about this kind of thing myself, but I would love to hear from anyone with Real World knowledge and experience on this kind of thing.

While it is certainly true that an F-16 especially is aerodynamically capable of banking around pretty darn quickly for another run, to play devil's advocate, this doesn't mean this is necessarily how it's done. I can think of at least two possible reasons for a longer turnaround:

1) Time for the FAC to assess the effectiveness of the first pass, radio any corrections to the aim point to the pilot, etc.

2) Additional time for the plane to pull up to higher altitude, drop flares/chaff etc. as a pre-emptive maneuver against MANPADS and light AAA. AAA and MANPADS aren't directly represented in CM:SF, but IRL they'd be a major concern on strafing runs. I do know that it's often SOP to accellerate rapidly up an out of the area after making a low-level attack run, to keep hostiles from drawing a bead on you.

The above also holds to a less extent of Attack Helicopters. Just because they can loiter about in one place and fire until they are out of ammo, doesn't mean this is the way they usually operate in a hot combat zone. Sitting around in one spot blazing away is a great way to get shot, whether you're an infantry grunt or a chopper pilot.

But this is all speculation on my part, and I don't have any real knowledge of what real turn around times from attack run to attack run are. . . as I said, I'd love to hear from those who have been there and done that, about how these things generally work.

Cheers,

YD

[Guest Guest]

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[Taki]

The Re-Aproach Time should be Scenario Designed. As the First Approch Time too. Also there should be some Diffrence Made where the Are of Target is.

When you see those Iraq Videos and how long it Take till an A-10 is strafing a Point its okay that they take that Long. but if its a Hill with a House on it and the Unit got the Coordinates it wont take that Long i guess.

Maybe there should be a "Fast" Order that could fail the Precision and a "Slow" Order that is more Precise and take longer to Approach?

Same with AA Measurements. Why not Simulate them and if there is AA Spottet in that Area the Approach should Take longer? Only Physical and how long Plane needs to spot/Mark Target again that 3-5 Minutes seems still to long to me.

If you talking to FAC again about how much Damage is done, if Target is Hit and so on there should be even more Time added then 3-5 Minutes.

As i read in Ambush Alley there where a Blue on Blue A-10 Gunrun on some APC`s. Its not that Easy finding the Right Targets when you are up that High.

But what about Laser Designators for FAC Units? Way better Precision and Approach Time when Target is Marked in LOS with Laser Marker? And how hard is it to implement a No Vis to Target Air Support?

As it is right now the Airsupport Simulation is "expendable" and need a Bit of Tweaking.

[YankeeDog]

Well, considering there is still considerable work to be done on the basic infantry combat modeling, I'd say refinements to the Air Support model are probably not the highest priority right now.

From what I do know if it, being a Forward Air Controller is an extremely complicated job. You could proabably write a whole computer game simulation as complex as CMSF, just about being a FAC. So BFC does need to simplify things considerably just to keep CMSF playable, let alone programmable in any realistic timeframe. It's a tactical ground combat game, not a support assets management game.

But perhaps you are right that the Air Support modeling could use some refinement. Let's hope they get to it at some point, perhaps as the revision numbers get into the low teens.

Adam raises a good point to keep in mind, that there is at least one individual on the BFC staff with Real World experience in combat jets, and I'd hazard a guess that they probably consulted a few more individuals with similar experience as they were working on CMSF. While I'm sure there are elements that could be improved, overall I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt until someone comes up with specific, verifiable data that shows the performance of any aspect of the game engine is inaccurate.

Cheers,

YD

[dynaman200]

Another item to take into consideration is things are not as drawn out in the game as they are in reality (we tend to push our pixel troops far faster then they would go in real life).

Which leaves a problem, should air support be sped up as well (to match the inflated ground combat tempo), or should it be left to a more realistic rate?

[Omenowl]

My father was an apache pilot and I watched several of the videos where they fired on iraqi troops. The Iraqis never knew they were there unless they flew over.

Time on target is one thing, but not for a loittering attack. This is a huge deal when you play missions and you can't alter the areas they will attack and the tanks are moving. The ability to move your areas is important in a case like this. What is the point of having air support if you are being attacked and the enemy is moving?

[Yair Iny]

Well, I suggest that you try playing Falcon4AF a bit, and see how long it takes you to re-organize for another attack run against a target, contact the FAC, get authorization, roll in, identify and finally engage the target. It is a surprisingly long process, you will find. In addition, re the point about the falcon's ability to pull Gs, you should take into account that when loaded with AG ammo, the plane pulls fewer Gs than in an AA configuration, and in RL pilots would be very reluctant to pull Gs anyway unless they have to (it isn't the most comfortable feeling in the world).

[bodkin]

On another note, it would be nice if the troops had more feedback from the aircraft. It's often hard to tell what the situation is, sometimes you think the aircraft has finished and send your troops in to mop up only to have them straffed or bombed.

Shouldn't there be some feedback like "bombs in the air", "10 seconds!" or other warnings like that?

[molotov_billy]

On the subject, it would be nice to see the real name of the weapon that's represented by "Light", "Medium", and "Heavy" ordinance.

[Taki]

I think we need some Speed Up Air Support. More Approximate to the Game Pace. If the Game where Realistic then the Last Mission i played should have lasted about 3 Hours or more and not 1 Hour.

So shorten the Time for second Approaches bye 1/2 would be okay i guess.

True is that Talking with FAC after an Approach and do a Second one will take its 5 Minutes. But you cant Change the Commands for the F-16 then.

[rune]

Well, my experience was primarily air to air, but a 5 minute reaquire with target recognition and permission granted isn't that unusual. In an all out war, the aircraft would NEVER go in for a second attack period. Since total air superiority is assumed in the scenario [i agree with], the aircraft making the run is going to get out of the hot zone, fly to a new approach, and 300 seconds is NOT a long time. Heck, the dust from the bomb wouldn't have cleared, and assessment would be re-done before re-engageing.

Here is a typical combat. Notice it took them 20 minutes to drop 4 bombs.

When we arrived, Texas 11 had his team in the hills. From his voice, I could tell the situation was tense. He was on a hill with a road through an east-west valley on one side. Texas 11 had holed himself up with his team because he commanded a view of this valley south of Konduz. He could see a lot of Taliban troops moving towards Konduz. Some enemy forces had discovered his location. They set up some mortar positions on a nearby hill. Taliban vehicles were surrounding his position. Some Taliban troops started up the hill towards the group. Texas 11 had an immediate target for us. We spun around. My wingman dropped a WCMD, which hit just at the tail end of the convoy of vehicles and caught them on fire. We spun back around, and it was my turn. Texas 11 wanted me to move the next drop up the hill a bit. The second WCMD hit right where he wanted it. “Awesome. Awesome,” he said. “Direct hit. Standby for another target.” My wingman dropped the next bomb on the vehicles. My final drop was on the mortar positions—another direct hit. We dropped four weapons on the bad guys in about twenty minutes. The sun had set. Our bombs and the cover of darkness gave the GFAC a way out of the area. Texas 11 came back on the radio one last time and said, “Thanks. We’re outta here.”

– Capt. Paul, 366th Wing

Remember, you have to fly far enough away so the enemy does NOT see where you come from next. A SAM WILL wreck your day.

A typical F16 run in begins at the 2 minute mark. Evasive last about 2 minutes, then flight to new ingress takes time.

If you REALLY want all the nitty gritty, read this:

http://download.high-g.net/files/F-16_Handbooks/11-f-16v5.pdf

Rune

[Bigduke6]

I was playing a scenario from the campaign and air strikes came in less than two minutes from the call. In some cases less than a minute.

I think this affected the speed of response:

- strikes planned at the beginning of the game

- high-quality FO called the strikes

- nothing was bothering the FO

- FO had terrific LOS

[Hev]

From the scenario design point of view it would be nice if we had a greater degree of choice over the weapons the aircraft carried. It would be great if we had the support choices included its loadout with a random setting thrown in for good meaure.

It would be nice to be able to set up missions with totaly inapropriate air support seeing as you dont always get the most helpfull support!

[phaeden]

As a former Marine with ANGLICO, I have called in a fair number of CAS missions (and even a few SEAD). Five minutes is quick. Before I explain at all, I want to bring up the idea of game versus reality. Most of us play for enjoyment and not for training. As a result, many would be rather put off by making this too real (I mod for Armed Assault and OFP in the past and can speak from experience here). Players want to have the 'illusion' of realism without any of the real bother of making it real. Calling in a real air strike is complicated, time consuming, and there is very little room for error. In a game, people want to be able to click on a map, wait 30 seconds (or less in games like BF2) and then see some really pretty visual effect. I think CMSF does a great job at providing a much more realistic environment than BF2, but it is still a game.

Ok, with that out of the way, let me explain about real CAS. First, it does take time - more than most people think, even after watching CNN. If I have several aircraft 'on-station' I will be able to get the first bombs on target in about 10 minutes (+/- depending upon a wide range of variables). On big difference between games and reality is Dash-2. That is the second jet that trails behind the first by 30 seconds or so. After Lead's bombs impact, the FAC makes immediate corrections for the second plane. If additional runs are needed, the jets will egress all the way back out to the Initial Point. This is miles and miles away. You then have to go through the entire call for fire again (9 Line) and then get the aircraft back on station. Speaking from experience, time goes much MUCH faster in real life when you are trying to coordinate, communicate, track the target, and not get killed. So, ten minutes or so in real life is pretty damn fast. In game, 10 minutes can be an eternity. The game doesn't take into account the myriad of other variables (running low on fuel, losing track of the target, weather, other units having priority, other aircraft in the area (interrupting bombing runs), comms going down, inexperience or human error, and the list goes on and on.

So, I recommend that we enjoy the speed at which we can call in such firepower.

[the Fighting Seabee]

Hoorah!

[Taki]

I guess the Times they Take too attack and Approach Again Matches to Real Life times. But the Game is more Paced then in RL. Its faster then Reallife and so should the Approach Times of Planes and Helis be shorter too.

[YankeeDog]

Thanks for the input, Rune, Phaeden and everyone else who's been there and done that. Very educational.

Now if we can just get an Attack Helicopter crewman to post some useful tidbits, we'll be all set. (Though thanks for the Omneowl for the one-generation removed comments, which are the next best thing).

I do think the "time compression" issue is a real one, and one that will need to be kept in mind going forward. Though I think it would be better to first reconsider modeling in other aspects of the game, and perhaps adjusting scenario designs, rather than artificially shortening air support response times.

Cheers,

YD

[Hev]

given that the game mainly simulates the "front line" ie: combat areas that will be above the norm for most combat scenarios with all involved caught up in the brunt of the fighting, why cant the support times (including arty) have a minute or so shaved of them.

This would keep all the support options up to pace with the rest of the game!