Syrian TO&E thread

[Battlefront.com]

Here are some updated thoughts about Syrian T-72 models and specs based on Rudel's info, Jane's, various sources on the Internet, and Zaloga's brilliant post war Soviet armor book.

T-72

Original version, deadlined for parts or simply used up during the last few decades. We won't be including this version.

T-72M

Stock Soviet export version, most likely coming out of Poland but also possibly Czechoslovakia. This model has no ERA on it.

T-72M (upgraded)

Stock M version partially upgraded to M1 standards. This includes replacing gill armor with skirts, smoke launchers, as well as extra armor welded to front hull. What it lacks is the M1's better front turret armor. Offered in late 80’s and its likely that the Syrians couldn’t upgrade all of their T-72’s to this standard.This model has no ERA on it.

T-72MV (upgraded)

Same as M (upgraded), but with Kontact ERA (1st Gen ERA). No other differences.

T-72M1

Stock M1 coming from Slovakia around 1992. This model has no ERA on it.

T-72M1V

Stock M1 with Kontact ERA (1st Gen ERA), no other differences.

T-72M2

Stock M1 with Kontact-5 ERA (2nd Gen ERA). I'm not sure if there are any other differences.

T-72 Turms-T

Some version of T-72M that has been upgraded with Italian made package. Czech Republic also has these in service as T-72M3 and M4. The upgrade consists of better fire control systems, better armor, some sort of 2nd Gen ERA, the ability to fire ATGM missiles, and improved engine (either tweaked or replaced, we don't know which). Contract signed in 1998 and looks like all upgrades were completed early 2000s timeframe within Syria. We do not know specifically which model was upgraded, but it would likely be the stock T-72M since there would be the least redundancy.

-------------

We're pretty sure about all of the ones listed above. Multiple sources confirm them at the very least, including UN reports. Here are the ones we aren't sure about these ones on Rudel's list:

T-72S1 - possibly from Iran

Aka T-72B1. We can't find any sources that show these came out of the Soviet Union. The Syrians appear to have skipped over this model and went directly for M models in the early 1990s. However, it is possible that the Syrians imported some from Iran "below the radar", as they were producing similar versions for thsemselves that are indistinguishable from the Soviet/Russian version. Such a move would have happened in early 2000s, prior to the 2003.

T-72G

We haven't found any sources to confirm this being in Syrian hands, but since Syria did get tanks from Poland and Czechoslovakia for sure, it is possible they could have got some of the G models.

T-72M1S

We have no idea what this is There is no official designation like this at all, so we're not sure what to make of it.

Rudel, what sources do you have for these three types? How certain are they that these vehicles exist in Syria? Any more details like when they were acquired and where they came from?

Thanks,

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Steve, I listed everything Syria had. But no one has paid attention yet.

I am getting pretty confused here by the different model variations.

I asked around at work and am getting different opinions as well.

My best data is what I listed along with number of tanks avaliable.

Unfortunatly this data gives the Soviet designation to the vehicle and not the Syrian or export version.

Also from what I read Syria has been reluctant to purchase export models since results have shown that they are rather poor in combat.

They either purchase them straight from Russia itself, the former eastern bloc, or they buy upgrade kits and perform upgrades to Russian standerd.

If you will look at the bottom of page 10 and my second to last post, you will see a quick list of all the tanks I found in Syrias inventory.

I will concede that the M model is probably in Syrian hands in all the forms you listed.

I believe the Syrians possess both the T-72B1 and the T-72G

I will stand by that

I will concede my point on the T-72A

My educated guess is that they have either been upgraded or stripped for parts. You guys can cut that model.

The T-72AV is not on your list. Did you forget it?

I know Syria has them

The T-72M1S

I know Finland had some of these and used this designation for them.

I would put out a call for Fins on this board to hop over here and tell us about this version.

I am reasonably sure Syria has some or something close to it. A few sources list this variant by the name I gave.

Most of my info is coming from Janes, monthy Pentagon reports, monthly third party defense contrator reports, defense think tank reports, some older (pretty old) CIA reports that I have access too, some contact in Israel

And then some stuff I can't list

I think our lists match pretty closely we are just different on what to call some of this stuff.

Some of my better sources are giving the Russian model name and not the export model name.

Can you do this for the T-62 and T-55 as well?

I am not trying to argue with you guys

Just trying to get an accurate as possible picture as we can before you start going through the trouble of putting this stuff into the game.

And how easy is it to make a base model and then put on extra stuff like better fire control and ERA etc?

If it is pretty easy, I would go with the 'macro' approach and use both mine and your lists.

That way we would at least cover everything.

We may hit a few they do not actualy have.

But if we can't figure it out.

No one outside a few people in Syria will ever know

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Here are some updated thoughts about Syrian T-72 models and specs based on Rudel's info, Jane's, various sources on the Internet, and Zaloga's brilliant post war Soviet armor book.

T-72

Original version, deadlined for parts or simply used up during the last few decades. We won't be including this version.

I want to again politely say that I see this as a mistake.

Syria still have several hundred of these 'early' models still rolling.

I am going to give up on the A model since I agree with you guys that very few is any are still running.

However, I am going to continue to fight for the inclusion of the T-72B1 and T-72G model.

I belive significant numbers of these are still being used and have not been upgraded or stripped for parts.

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Rudel,

Steve, I listed everything Syria had. But no one has paid attention yet.

Obviously I have, since I asked you about the same ones you listed However, some of what you wrote contradicts our information and some of what you wrote is just confusing. Which is understandable because there are SO MANY different versions as well as homegrown upgrades. So let's keep digging because clearly we haven't found the bottom yet.

My best data is what I listed along with number of tanks avaliable.

Unfortunatly this data gives the Soviet designation to the vehicle and not the Syrian or export version.

That's not a problem since there are clear matches for these designations. Quick summation:

T-72 = T-72 (original export version had same designation as Soviet type)

T-72M = T-72 Model 1975 w/ fire control system (FCS) similar to T-72A

T-72M1 = T-72A

T-72M1V = T-72AV

T-72S/S1 = T-72B/B1 (note S was originally M1M)

So what about the T-72G? It is the Polish made T-72M export model! Meaning, there are little to no differences between the M, A and G models.

Since most of our disagreements come from not understanding how the export models (our list) relate to the Soviet models (your list) I think we can now clear up most of these differences!

Also from what I read Syria has been reluctant to purchase export models since results have shown that they are rather poor in combat. They either purchase them straight from Russia itself, the former eastern bloc, or they buy upgrade kits and perform upgrades to Russian standerd.

Remember that Soviet/Russian built units also received the "export" designations, as did the ones from Poland and Czechoslovakia (Slovakia now). The latter were "official" export outlets for Soviet arms deals. We know for sure that they bought M1s from Slovakia and if you say they have G's then they also bought tanks from Poland (which we also found evidence of). So your source can be correct that the Syrians preferred Soviet/Russian built versions, but they definitely purchased units from other sources. What they did not do is purchase models from Yugoslavia, China, or Iraq (as far as we know). So I think your source is correct, it is just that you're taking it too literally.

The T-72AV is not on your list. Did you forget it?

I know Syria has them

It's on my list as the T72M1V, so we're in agreement here.

The T-72M1S

I know Finland had some of these and used this designation for them.

I would put out a call for Fins on this board to hop over here and tell us about this version.

I am reasonably sure Syria has some or something close to it. A few sources list this variant by the name I gave.

I can't find any reference for this on the Internet. Every time I do a search I come up with "T-72M1s" (as in plural M1 tanks). The Finns absolutely have T-72M1 model tanks for sure, as do the Syrians. But none of us can find any reference to a T-72M1S in books, Jane's, or on the Web. This makes us scratch our heads because if it is an established designation, especially if in Finnish use, we would expect to see something about it. If the Syrians do have a tank called the M1S then it must be a domestic upgrade and there is no record of it except for the source/s you have available to you.

Most of my info is coming from Janes, monthy Pentagon reports, monthly third party defense contrator reports, defense think tank reports, some older (pretty old) CIA reports that I have access too, some contact in Israel

And then some stuff I can't list

Thanks!

Can you do this for the T-62 and T-55 as well?

When the headache from dealing with the T-72 is over, yes

And how easy is it to make a base model and then put on extra stuff like better fire control and ERA etc?

Generally pretty easy, though it really depends on what the item is.

No one outside a few people in Syria will ever know

You got that right!

I want to again politely say that I see this as a mistake.

Syria still have several hundred of these 'early' models still rolling.

I suspect that these would be the T72-M models, which we are including. They are pretty primitive and quite old. Some are probably pushing 30 years old! If they had any of the original T-72 models (pre-1975) I find it hard to believe they are still running. They would have been upgraded in some way or put out of service.

Remember too that the Syrians went without many spare parts for almost 10 years. They had to get them from someplace, and one source I have (somewhere) stated specifically that the Syrians cannibalized lots of tanks.

I am going to give up on the A model since I agree with you guys that very few is any are still running.

Actually, we agree that significant numbers are still in service. This is the T-72M.

However, I am going to continue to fight for the inclusion of the T-72B1 and T-72G model.

I belive significant numbers of these are still being used and have not been upgraded or stripped for parts.

As stated above, the T-72G is actually the T-72M made in Poland. The B1/S1 debate, however, is still on

Do you have any idea when they might have received these units? We find it a little disconcerting that we've turned up no confirmation that either of these were ever actually purchased by the Syrians. There are so many deals that were signed that didn't take place, not to mention intelligence reports being wrong (like the late model T-72A being called the T-80/2 by NATO forces), that we have to be cautious here. Not to mention all the confusing designations! Hard to keep them all straight even with them right in front of me

I did see that the Iraqis bought a bunch of T-72S1 models, but Gulf War One sanctions went into place after the units were all ready to ship. Since they couldn't be sent, they were kept and used by Russian forces (eventually in Chechniya).

Steve

[ December 12, 2006, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

The T-72M1S

I know Finland had some of these and used this designation for them.

I would put out a call for Fins on this board to hop over here and tell us about this version.

I am reasonably sure Syria has some or something close to it. A few sources list this variant by the name I gave.

all Finnish T-72 are, and are designated, T-72M1.

the Soviet ones are apparently a bit better (better night vision equipment, more reliable) than the ones we got from Germany in 1990s (made in Poland and Czechoslovakia).

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I can't find any reference for this on the Internet. Every time I do a search I come up with "T-72M1s" (as in plural M1 tanks). The Finns absolutely have T-72M1 model tanks for sure, as do the Syrians. But none of us can find any reference to a T-72M1S in books, Jane's, or on the Web. This makes us scratch our heads because if it is an established designation, especially if in Finnish use, we would expect to see something about it.

i can't recall having ever heard of a T-72M1S and i suspect such a variant does not exist. i guess RD is thinking about T-72S1 (which Finland does not possess).

[rudel.dietrich]

I have seen a few different sources list the T-72M1S

If nothing can be found about it then is is not a huge deal.

It is basicaly a T-72AV without ERA armour.

It CAN fire AT-11 ATGMs

[rudel.dietrich]

That does clear alot of things up for me.

Which designations are you guys going with?

Syrian, export or Russian?

The only two questions remaining are to see if I can solve the ghost mystery of the T-72M1S (probably called something else on your list)

And to see if I can find any firmer evidence of the T-72B1

If I missed something please let me know

I feel like we are getting somewhere now

[Battlefront.com]

Hi Rudel,

The designations and exceptions are maddening, that is for sure!

We will be using the export designations because they are, in general, the correct ones to use. In theory all models in Syrian hands should be export models, whether they were made in the USSR/Russia, Czechoslovakia/Slovakia, or Poland. It would be suicide to mix and match designations, so that is out anyway

The T-72M1S is likely some unofficial upgrade that someone assigned a name to. Perhaps they meant "T-72M1 Syrian" of something like that. Anyway, there appears to be no confirmation of this thing existing outside of whatever info you have. Generally that isn't a good sign since the info on the Web is very often based on the same sources you are using (Jane's in particular).

A confirmed presence of a T-72S1 would be interesting!

Steve

[Molotov Cocktail]

the ones we got from Germany in 1990s (made in Poland and Czechoslovakia).

Those from Germany are former GDR (German Democratic Republic) or DDR (Deutsche Demokratische Republik) or East German NVA (Nationale Volksarmee or National People's army) inventory . We also bought Kalashnikov Ak-47 bullets for our Valmet and Sako assault rifles and maybe some GDR Kalashnikovs for our reserve forces if I remember right

[ December 20, 2006, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Molotov Cocktail ]

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Molotov Cocktail:

Those from Germany are former GDR (German Democratic Republic) or DDR (Deutsche Demokratische Republik) or East German NVA (National Volksarmee or National People's army) inventory .

yep, but the tanks were made in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

We also bought Kalashnikov Ak-47 bullets for our Valmet and Sako assault rifles and maybe some GDR Kalashnikovs for our reserve forces if I remember right

yep, all kinds of stuff including arty as well.

"ironically" much of this stuff is now being scrapped just about a decade later. and with them the two armored brigades and all the separate battalions and coys armed with East Block tanks.

[John Kettler]

Not sure if this is the best place for it, but I stumbled across a wealth of data on Russian ATGMs and other PGMs here. Thought it might be useful to the devs regarding both well established systems and nasty possibilities for upcoming modules.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?s=26ebfe050061b6e577875634df69924d&t=51636

Regards,

John Kettler

[civdiv]

Rudel,

Check your email, I sent you something. Hopefully it got to you before you cracked one of your latest nuts.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by civdiv:

Rudel,

Check your email, I sent you something. Hopefully it got to you before you cracked one of your latest nuts.

I probably did not get it.

I only allow e-mail from addresses I add to a safe list.

If anyone wants/needs or has sent me e-mail.

You need to let me know ahead of time.

Using the PM system of the forum is a pretty good way or reaching me if you need to do so in private.

[civdiv]

I have no idea how to PM on this board, I don't even see the option. So here you go;

A guy by the name of Sergey Suvorow wrote a series of articles on the development of the T-72 in 2004 and 2005. Here's the list;

T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Profile of T-72 Main Battle Tank, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 28 Jul 2004

T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Russian Armor Veteren Critiques the T-72 Tank, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 11 Aug 2004

T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Poland Adds Innovations to Russian T-72 Tank, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 31 Oct 2004

T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Continuation of Series on T-72 Tank Development, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 10 Nov 2004

T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Tank Production in India, Yugoslavia, Croatia Chronicled, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 06 Dec 2004

T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Continuing Series on T-72 Development: Ukraine, Belarus Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 28 Feb 2005

I have hardcopy translations. And do my citations pass academic muster? Let me know what you need. I have a bunch of other stuff also that I can't cite as it resides in databases that the general public doesn't have access to.

-----------------------------------

S. Suvorov; T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Profile of T-72 Main Battle Tank, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 28 Jul 2004

T-72 ‘Ural’

Turret: Max 280mm conventional armor

Hull : Composite, max: 200mm, angled to be equivalent to 500-600 rolled (homogenous) armor.

The later O-72 modifications featured a higher turret and hull protection.

Commander’s hatch: TKN-3 day and night binocular-type vision block mechanically attached to the IR searchlight, OU-3GKU.

Main Gun: 125mm smoothbore, D-81TM (2A46).

Basic Load: 39 rounds w/ 22 rounds in autoloader and 17 rounds stored in turret and hull.

Ammo: Sabot (ZBM9), HEAT, and HE.

Gunners Sight:

Day: Optical periscopic rangefinder sight, TPD-2-49, with elevation stabilization.

Night: TPN 1-49-23 w/ IR searchlight, L-2AG ‘Luna-2’,range 800 meters.

Note: initial production tanks had IR searchlight on the left, which left the coax mg right behind the drivers hatch, and several drivers were shot that way. Later models moved the searchlight to the right.

Stabilization: Double-axis, 2E28M ‘Siren’.

NBC Protection: ‘ Rosa ’

T-72 ‘Ural-K’

Commander’s variant with increased communications equipment, tank navigation equipment TNA-3, and a loading device, AB-1 (Unk what the latter is). The tank also has with an additional radio, the HF R-130M, which could be used while stationary with a 10 meter antenna giving it a range of over 300 km. This extra equipment reduced the main gun basic load to 31 rounds.

Modifications:

T-72A

Circa, 1979.

Laser rangefinder sight, TPD-K1 replaced optical TPD-2-49

Later versions of T-72A had an aiming system, 1A40 which included the laser rangefinder sight, TPD-K1, lateral lead computation device [uVBU] with a display unit and a ballistic adjuster.

New gunner’s passive-active IR night site, TPNZ-49 with a new IR searchlight, L-4A ‘Luna-4’ resulted in increasing night range to 1,300 meters.

Basic load increased to 44 rounds.

Enhanced Protection: Front turret armor utilized new composite using sand core fillers increasing it to equivalent of 500mm rolled, homogenous armor against SABOT and 560mm against HEAT rounds.

Since 1980 T-72As have been equipped with the 902A ‘Tucha-2’ smoke grenade system (12 launchers) and the ‘Sota’ napalm protection system.

Chassis was upgraded for higher cross-country mobility and an improved diesel engine, V-46-6 was used.

Driver gets new active-passive night vision block, TVNE-4B.

T-72AK

Commander’s version of T-72A.

Same upgrades as T-72 ‘Ural’ with basic load reduced to 36 rounds.

T-72M

Circa, 1980.

Export model of T-72A.

Mostly manufactured abroad.

Differed in level of protection and the collective defense system (no details).

In 1982 T-72M upgraded based on lessons learned from local conflicts.

T-72M1

16 mm appliqué armor on the top front plate, and composite armor on the front turret with sand core fillers.

T-72AV

Circa 1985.

ERA of 227 elements added.

During PM and overhaul after 1985 most of the T-72A were upgraded to T-72AV. Also, since 1985 T-72M1 have been fitted with ERA.

T-72B (“obekt 184”)

Circa, 1985.

New turret armor package provided significant added protection (no details).

20mm of appliqué armor added to top front of hull.

227 ERA elements added, 118 located on hull.

Latest batches have neutron protection added to outside layer of armor (Added to T-72A also).

Guided missile system, 9K120 ‘Svir’ [W/ 9M119 missile, know in NATO as AT-11 Sniper] added.

New 125mm smoothbore gun, 2A46M w/ better accuracy and performance.

Gunners Sight upgraded to 1A40-1 based on the TPD-K1 laser rangefinder used on the T-72A, however, new sight utilizes an automatic ballistic adjuster that inputs differences in charge, air temperature, atmospheric pressure, angular velocities, tank movement, and other firing conditions. (This sight did not do these calculations on the fly, rather it used calculations fed into the system prior to combat or prior to firing).

Night Sight: 1 K13-49 sight that is part of the 9E 120 guided missile system.

Weapon Stabilizer upgraded to 2E42-2, hydroelectric in elevation, electromechanical in horizontal plane.

Engine: More powerful 840hp V-84-1.

T-72BK

Commander’s variant of T-72B.

Added second HF radio, and new tank navigation system, TNA-4, remote plotter, and had a smaller basic load.

T-72B1

T-72B w/o guided missile system.

T-72BM

Circa, 1992.

Modernized T-72B.

Built-in second generation ERA effective against HEAT and SABOT.

Fitted w/ fire control system with a weather ballistic sensor. (My understanding is this is an on-the-fly system that takes into account weather parameters in realtime.)

T-72S

Circa 1987.

Export version of T-72B.

Initially also referred to as T-72M1M.

ERA package of 155 elements on turret and hull that is identical to the armor on the T-72M1. Variety of rounds for 125mm main gun including 9M119 guided missile.

Since 1992 ERA fitted as built-in ERA as on T-72BM.

T-72S1

T-72S w/o guided missile.

[civdiv]

So to cap off, I have details on the following T-72s (Hopefully I get them all);

T-72

T-72K

T-72A

T-72AK

T-72M

T-72M1

T-72B

T-72B1

T-72BK

T-72S

T-72S1

(All of these are mentioned above)

Plus;

TR-125 (Romania)

T-72M1 (Slovakia)

T-72M1-A (Slovakia)

T-72M2 (Slovakia)

T-72M3CZ (Czech)

+ TURMS version (Firecontrol upgrade)

T-72M4CZ (Czech)

+ TURMS version (Firecontrol and powerpack upgrade) I have the details for both the TURMS updates, but alot of info there so let me proceed with the types;

T-72AG (Ukraine)

T-72MP (Czech, Ukraine, France)

T-72M1 (India)

M-84 (Yugoslavia)

M-84A (T-72M1) (Yugo)

T-72M (Poland)

T-72M1 (Poland)

T-72M1M (Poland)

PT-91 (Poland)

I think that's it. I'll try and get the TURMS-T description done sometime tonight (There are a couple of different versions).

[civdiv]

TURMS-T

Czech T-72M3 CZ and T-72M4 CZ

DYNA-72 Reactive Armor improves protection against HEAT by a factor of 3.6 and against SABOT by a factor of 1.3.

LARDIS radiation detection system that automatically deploys new-generation DGO-1 smoke grenades.

T-72M3 has native engine and final drives except two turbocompressors are added. Minor changes to tank running gear.

T-72M4 has Condor CV-12 1000 TCS four stroke V12 w/ liquid cooling and a power of 1013 hp. Also equipped with a blower and two turbocompressors. Also, XTG416-6 automatic gearbox with hydaulic transformer and positive displacement hydraulic transmission. 4 forward and two reverse gears.

Both versions equipped with a new passive night-vision system for driver.

Diagnostic system to monitor faults.

GPS and INS navigation systems.

BUA fire-fighting system.

TURMS-T itself

The FCS combined with gun stabilizer and automatic loader of the base tank (Not upgraded).

Same 125mm 2A46 gun w/ 2E28 stabilizer.

TURMS-T controls stabilization and auto-loading, automatically inputs initial firing data, automatically sets the sighting angles in accordance with firing data, lays the gun and the COAX on the target.

Gunners sight is monocular with independant, two-plane stabilization, built-in laser rangefinder and thermal imager. The gunners panel is linked to elements of the fire control system, the digital ballistic cpu, and the SKPDS (A bore monitor to correct for muzzle warp). There is a back-up manual sight.

The TC position is equipped with a periscopic panoramic sight of the binocular type with two levels of magnification, built-in thermal imaging chamber, and an independantly stabilized field-of-view in two planes. The TC can ID tgts for the gunner, independant of his direction of lay, pick ammunition, or take control of the gun to engage a target himself (The TC has to estimate range though).

Raises ability of tank to shoot accurately to 2000m while moving and can detect tank-sized object out to 5000m during day, and 4000m at night.

The author witnessed two firing trials and the upgraded tanks did not appear to be very accurate. The author surmised that it could be due the tanks having the same old gun and the same old stabilizer as prior to the upgrade.

Source:

S. Suvorov, T-72 Tank: Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, Continuation of Series on T-72 Tank Development, Moscow, Tekhnika i Vooruzheniye in Russian, 10 Nov 2004

[ December 26, 2006, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[rudel.dietrich]

I think BF has the data they need on the models.

I think the only T-72 question left is if Syria has the T-72S or T-72S1

[John Kettler]

civdiv,

So impressively detailed it makes my head spin! And I used to deal with this stuff professionally some years back.

Regards,

John Kettler

[civdiv]

John,

I just hope it serves as some utility to the designers. I have been pinging Rudel for weeks, but now I find he is blocking emails. And I freely provide the data and I don't even expect a free copy of the game, I'd gladly pay the $50 to help BF out. I've already bought every CM title, plus bought multiple copies of CMBO, CMAK, CMBB for both my brother and for my former roommate (Well, my roommmate only got CMAK and CMBB as CMBO had been replicated by CMAK while I screwed up and got CMBO and CMBB for my brother.), and for two other Close Combat Opponents who I gave copies of CMBB. But my brother fixed this with his own purchase of CMAK. All are poised to pick up CMSF.

And BF, I await any other OOB or technical questions; I have access to many military libraries the majority of the posters do not have any access to.

[ December 26, 2006, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the info CivDiv! We're pretty well set with technical data, at least in terms of declassified stuff (we actually don't want classified... makes us feel icky!). What we could use is some verification/challenge to any of the stuff Rudel and I have been discussing in terms of the TO&E and structure of Syrian specific formations. I think I've filled in a few of the holes, such as Engineers, but if you have info about them I'd love to know it! Also, would love to get some more info about Syrian Special Forces. For example, we are planning on having their Squads consist of two independent Fire Teams, just like Western units. This is not the case with the rank and file Army guys.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by civdiv:

John,

I have been pinging Rudel for weeks, but now I find he is blocking emails.

I was not blocking just you or on purpose.

I have that account set up for special purposes and only allow in mail from a safe list.

If I know someone is trying to mail me I will add you to the list.

Otherwise everything gets put into my 'spam' mail and then deleted without me ever knowing.

So please dont be offended

And as I said before, if you want to mail me.

Let me know ahead of time and give me the address and I will make sure to put you onto my safe list so that your mail gets through.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Also, would love to get some more info about Syrian Special Forces. For example, we are planning on having their Squads consist of two independent Fire Teams, just like Western units. This is not the case with the rank and file Army guys.

Steve

I am working on uniforms for you.

Unfortunatly most of what I find is about their activities outside of actual warfare.

So that is of little use.

What else do you need data on?

[civdiv]

Rudel,

No worries, wasn't meaning to sound offended. I was just sitting on this stuff and I had emailed you a few weeks ago about it, and then again yesterday. No offense taken.

Re: the uniform issue, I just did a quick search in google images for "syrian soldier" and got like 70 hits, most being fairly modern pictures.

Steve,

If I did have access to classified info I certainly wouldn't give it to you. I like my freedom. I just have access to many research libraries that require significant cost to access.

[John Kettler]

In the interest of keeping certain topics together,

I thought I'd post some observations on technicals here.

As a result of whatever the clash is between the Somalis and the Ethiopians, technicals have been very much in evidence on the news. Just yesterday, I saw two distinct models, both painted white. The first was a Toyota shortbed PU, sporting an enormous (relative to the size of the truck) 12.7mm Dushka HMG. Mount was almost to the back of the cab in terms of positioning, with the gun's barrel projecting well past the top front of the cab. The other, which was harder to see given the angles, was a longbed, extended cab model with a 14.5 mm quad mount (ZPU-4) apparently sitting over the rear axle, likely because of the mount weight involved.

I did an Ask.com search myself under "syrian special forces" and came up with some disturbing stuff, to include multiple reports of their involvement with chemical strikes against villagers in Sudan, invasion of and bombings in Lebanon, guarding the graveyard of a prison notorious for extreme torture and murder, and apparently providing special security for disposal of Iraqi WMD tankered into Syria. One article alone had some thirty footnotes. Overall, I'd say these guys are both highly skilled and fanatical, too. That same search produced some fascinating material on U.S. ultimatums to Syria regarding its support of terrorism and harboring Saddam's WMD scientific-technical personnel. It would appear that the U.S. had SpecOps in country there and was prepared to strike hard if cooperation had not been given. All well and good, but I found no specifics on squad organziation and tactics.

Regards,

John Kettler