Update and suggestions regarding the "freeze" issue some of you are seeing!

[Madmatt]

First off I want to comment briefly on the overall freeze issue issue several of you are encountering. CrazyHouse (the games developer) is aware that the game is freezing up on you and are committed to finding and fixing this matter as quickly as they can. Battlefront.com has also expressed our own desire to get this freezing problem worked out in the most efficient way possible. I will be posting to this thread with any new info and data as I get it. This will be your main contact point from now on with regards to this matter.

Currently, they (CrazyHouse and their main contact IDDK) have still not been able to reliably replicate the freeze issue on their development systems but myself and their programmers have looked over all the posts here and in email, reviewed the hardware that is in the systems of those that have encountered the freeze issue and came up with a preliminary collection of some things we would like you all to try and then have you report back with what you find.

Please note, This is going to be an interactive process with me posting info and tweaks as I get them and hopefully you replying with changes in the games' behavior that you see or any progress that you encounter. I will be checking in daily with any new info I get from the Dev's or with my own testing and work.

I understand that you are not beta testers, nor do we expect you to act like ones, however the reality of the situation is that CrazyHouse is a very small Ukrainian based development house with a small, albeit committed, team of programmers that don't have access to the scope and scale of computer systems that you all have. Yes, they are working on this issue (and some other items as well) themselves but we can greatly help accelerate this process with your aid by getting this issue properly diagnosed and id'd so they can fix it and if we can find a workaround or tweak ourselves than so much the better.

So, let us begin.

After reviewing the hardware specs of all the people that have reported a game freeze one very obvious commonality was shown. Although not all, but surely the vast majority of you have Creative Labs Audigy sound cards. With that in mind, and based on experiences with many other games that had sound configuration issues I suggest that you all make the following changes to see it affects the frequency of lockups.

Try and reduce the overall Direct Sound Acceleration level Windows is running. This is done in the following way. Click the Start button, then select the RUN option and in the field type DXDIAG. That should launch the DirectX diagnostic program. With that open, click the "Sound" tab. Near the bottom you will see a slider bar where you can select the sound acceleration level that Windows is running. First, slide it one 'notch' to the left, so that its set at "Standard Acceleration". Now, click the Exit button to leave the application and reboot. Reload T-72 and play and see if the freezes continue to persist. If they do, re-access the DXDiag program, and lower the acceleration level one more notch to "Basic Acceleration", exit and reboot and launch the game again. Please make note if the crashes persist or if they seem to take longer to occur or any other changes you might encounter. What we want to determine is not if this change will fix it, but rather if it affects the problem at all or not so that the Dev's can then isolate and resolve the problem in the game code. We don't expect people to run their computers with no Hardware sound acceleration but it is a useful diagnostic tool. Please let me know what you see by replying to this thread.

One non-hardware specific possibility that the Dev's are looking into is that another program or application is trying to steal the 'focus' from the game while it is running and thereby causing a system conflict and triggering a freeze.

As mentioned in another thread here in this forum, we highly recommend using a program called "ENDITALL" (now up to version 2) which allows you to view and selectively shut down any and all applications running on your computer. I use this program a great deal myself but you should be careful with it as it's easy to shut down a critical program. Obtaining this program used to be simple but I could only find it available for free from one site currently which was this one:

http://www.docsdownloads.com/Tier1/enditall.htm

I am not sure if it is in fact still free nor do I make any claims about the website that is hosting it so as with any program downloaded from the Internet, use it at your own risk.

I strongly suggest you read the included HELP info that is accessed from within the program itself before you go shutting down things but it is another very powerful diagnostic tool. A good rule of thumb is to only shutdown applications that appear within EndItAll's Status window WITHOUT a padlock. That tells you that it is not a critical or needed system program and can be "killed" (terminated) usually without any ill effect. In order to use this program for our needs I suggest that you run Enditall before launching T-72, and be sure that only windows specific functions are running. You should also manually shutdown any other programs that could be running in the background including Virus-Checkers, Browsers, Email Clients, Instant Messengers and similar. Then use Enditall to clean up the rest. Please report back if you notice any specific application that, when killed, seems to allow T-72 to run longer (or forever) without a freeze and let us know what it is as well.

In conjunction with the normal everyday background applications that can cause lockups in games, the Dev's actually did encounter something else which they are looking into. Apparently, while demoing the game at a convention on another computer system they encountered a game freeze, very similar to what you have seen. When they investigated further they determined that it was actually a piece of spyware on the demo system that was triggering the freeze. Once they removed the spyware the game ran all day without crashing. As such, they want all systems that are encountering freezes to be scanned and cleaned of spyware, adware and malware. To facilitate that I STRONGLY suggest two products.

The first is Ad-Aware SE (v1.06), from Lavasoft which can be download for free from this site:

http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,7423,00.asp

Conveniently, on that very same page is a link to download the second program that I recommend. That one is called SpyBot Search & Destroy v1.03.

Both programs are free and amazingly easy to run and are pretty self explanatory. They are also updated frequently with new program definition files which you can automatically download and install.

Install them both, run Ad-Aware, have it scan your system fully and them remove all the spyware and adware it finds. Then reboot and run SpyBot Search & Destroy and have it run its' scan. Those two programs used in conjunction like that will find most every sneaky program your computer may have been exposed to and you will be amazed at what they report.

Try them out, then run T-72 and again report back what you find or any changes in the game.

Finally, I just want to express my appreciation for your help in this. Even though it has been said that the vast majority of people with T-72 do not encounter freezes this is a matter that DOES concern us greatly. You all bought the game, paid your hard earned money for it and now for some of you it's not working. Don't for a minute think that we don't realize how frustrating and annoying that is for you and we ARE working on getting this fixed for you. Some of you may be new to Battlefront and how we do business, others are not, but you need to know that we stand by our word. Regardless of where and who coded T-72, it's got our name on it and we, and I will work with you guys to get this issue figured out.

Thanks, and let me know what you find with this first batch of suggestions.

Madmatt

[Madmatt]

One thing I forgot to mention is that if you reply to this thread with info, please be sure and post your full system specs in each of your posts (what hardware you have etc...) so we can keep track of what people with different systems are seeing.

Thanks!

Madmatt

[Lord Gordon]

Thank you MadMatt, I am sure that this thread will becomes useful.

I think that the game crashes on startup and the freezes when in-game are linked, and are due to the sound system.

I can add my own experimentation:

1. My full game, like so many others, crashes on startup after "graphics initialisation". This error is misleading, the crash is due to the sound initialising after the graphics have completed. Setting cfg.bat to no sound, no music, enables the game to start.

2. Turning off hardware acceleration in cfg.bat has no effect, game still crashes.

3. Turning down or off the hardware acceleration on dxdiag has no effect, game still crashes.

4. Turning off music acceleration in dxdiag has no effect, game still crashes.

Tested on:

CPU: AMD3200

Chipset: Nforce2

RAM: 1gb

Sound Card: Turtle Beach Santa Cruz

Video card: NVidia 68000 AGP

OS: Windows XP Pro.

Edit: I found the culprit that causes the game crashes on startup. I had a sound codec installed, MMswitch.ax. This is installed by many codec packs to enable multimedia extensions on media player etc. The game sound system is not compatable with this codec. Renaming this codec to MMswitch.ax.bak will enable the game to start. Now to experiment on the freezes....

[ August 25, 2005, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Huntley Gordon ]

[Moon]

Disabling/removing MMswitch.ax is in fact mentioned in the game manual.

Martin

[Wehner]

Preliminary victory report :

I *DIS*abled Hardware Sound with DXDIA and tried the game *without rebooting*.

The sounds are now a bit choppy from time to time, but ... for the first time, the game ran 1.5 hours without freezing. The longest period for me so far was about 0.5 hours, maybe less.

I did not have more time to test today, so maybe I was just lucky. But I experienced landscapes and forrests I never saw before ... keep you updated.

Pentium 4 CPU 3.40GHz

L2 On-board Cache : 1MB ECC Synchronous

Mainboard : MICRO-STAR MS-7091

Total Memory : 1.5GB DDR-SDRAM

Chipset 1: Intel 82915G/GV/GL/P/PL/GL

Memory Bus Speed : 2x 166MHz

Video: NVIDIA GeForce 6610 XL 128 Mb (Nvidia 77.72)

Sound: C-Media Rear Panel Audio 5.10

Microsoft Windows XP/2002 Home (Win32 x86) 5.01.2600 (Service Pack 2)

- oh yes, and adaware found one tracking cookie ...

[g5r]

Well if they`re a small busyness, please don`t tell me they don`t have the funds (say 1500 USD or less?) to buy or build a computer to testrun theyr game on, even now as they`ve seem to have sold theyr unfinished game to people? This is a useless and invalid arguement, because this is an officially released and sold title, not a beta.

[Madmatt]

g5r,

Obviously they have development boxes and on those systems the game does not crash. The biggest issue at play here is that they haven't been able to replicate the crashes in their testing conditions however, they simply don't have access to the wide array of systems and configurations that you guys all have and since your the ones seeing the freezes, it is your help that we seek.

The game is not a beta, the problem encountered, while certainly severe for those that see it, is still in the vast minority of those that own the game. So, do you want to try and be part of the solution or would you prefer to contribute nothing at all here?

Madmatt

[klugman]

I just want to state that my game was ctd'ing frequently when I was overclocking my cpu. Now since I quit O/C-ing it dosnt crash at all no matter how long I play (or sit and wait for my treads to be repaired). I have absolutely no spyware onboard my system, and also have an audigy sound card. This game is the only simulation (out of about 40) on my system that has a problem with me overclocking. As soon as I overclock again boom CTD.

I have tried all that you have stated, and still I crash when I overclock. I'm not griping at all mind you, I'm just trying to help.

[Madmatt]

Thanks klugman, the more info we get like this the more I can work with the devs to try and pinpoint exactly the root cause and get it fixed.

Madmatt

[Stefan Hundhammer]

klugman, no offense, but an overclocked machine is not a basis to prove _anything_ . Everybody should know that overclocking is something to do at one's own risk. It is no use blaming anybody for any crash with an overclocked machine. Everything can happen on such a machine. Even if you think it is running smoothly and stable, any appllication that causes CPU load or uses lots of memory or that causes I/O load or that extensively uses the graphics card's or the sound card's HW acceleration can be that little drop of water that makes the barrel overflow.

Been there, done that - on the receiving end as a Linux system programmer, working on bug reports why Linux was so unstable on their machines while their Windows had run so well. People tend not to believe that there are differences how software uses hardware.

This is why we dumped all bug reports from people with overclocked machines. Those bug reports are simply worthless. An overclocked machine may break down at any moment whithout any special reason.

We are not talking about crashes due to hardware that is inherently instable all by itself. We are not talking about bluescreens or crash to desktop.

Most of us are talking about a situation where all of a sudden T72's display doesn't move any more - your tank and the whole sim world is stuck. Sound is playing, but there is no reaction to mouse, keyboard or joystick events.

You can switch to the Windows desktop with Alt-Tab. You can open the Windows task manager with Ctrl-Alt-Del. It shows T72 running normally (not as "not responding" or anything).

You can switch back to T72. The screen goes black for a moment, then you see that message "restoring graphics resources". But the sim world and your tank is still stuck (with the sound playing).

My machine is NOT overclocked. It runs rock-solid on both Windows and Linux.

Yet I experience that freezing problem.

HW specs:

P4-2.8 HT

Asus PC800 Motherboard

512 MB RAM

ATI Radeon 9600 Pro

Creative Labs Audigy 2 ZS

(exchanged for previous SB Live! 5.1 Digital 4 weeks ago - same problem with freezing)

Win XP Home SP2

No virus scanner or firewall SW active

(no modem etc. for Win)

No additional SW active at the same time as T72

(only default Win XP services)

latest ATI and SB drivers

turning down SB HW acceleration did not help one bit

fiddling with T72 config options (gras etc.) did not help, either

[barra733]

madmatt,

Thanks for your post, it lets us mere minions know that somethig's being done. I have run the game on my home computer, which i know has spyware on it, with no problems - runs like a dream. I have run the game on my laptop, which has NEVER been connected to the internet, and has had all associated programs removed, and the game crashes (only on the 'command' level).

Specs for my laptop:P4 3.06 GHz

1.84 GHz 448 MB RAM

ATI Mobility Radeon 7000 IGP

So I do't think it's a spyware problem...

[Novum]

thx for the hints..

most of the probems i have on my system is memory-related so this will realy help...

=)

[klugman]

Stefan, Didnt I state that I wasnt griping? (complaining), but just trying to help? I realize that an o/c'd pc is unstable, but I have no troubles with any other software on my system.

Besides that, all an AMD 2500+ Barton is, is an underclocked 3200+ Barton. There are too many so-called experts on this board.

[Moon]

klugman, when you run the cfg.bat program, and click on the "Troubleshooting" button, you will get a list of possible fixes/solutions based on a quick scan of your hardware. I bet that you will see something there to the effect that with overclocking the game won't work properly. So this isn't a bug as such, the game was never intended to work on overclocked systems, and we know that it doesn't.

Martin

[klugman]

So when I play T72, I dont O/C. I dont have a problem with that. Its just the nature of the beast. I love the game.

[Novum]

INFO: 4

If you overclocking processor, then:

- game will crush;

- show BSOD.

Disable overclocking.

ive found this in my autodetect.txt

in my T72 folder

[Novum]

well here is my Problem i have with the game..

the only thing that is different with my machine is that im running Win2000

0012: Error:

Wrong level CRC.

1 Re-install the game.

2 Delete all files in LEVELS folder.

but i dont have the freze troubel!!

[Moon]

Novum, have you tried to do what the instruction tells you? It seems like the levpack.cd file of the mission you're trying to play is corrupt. I would indeed recommend a new install.

Martin

[Novum]

thats the funny part.. i have reinstalled the game several times..

my installer is wery memory sensitive..

but ishall reinstall the game once more!!

just to be sure!!!

[Moon]

Hmm... perhaps a defective disc in that case... check the CD surface. Does it have any odd looking scratched etc? Contact sales@battlefront.com for a replacement in that case.

Martin

[Wehner]

.. after some more thorough testing, it turned out that the freezes came back, sadly enough. I checked it with reduced and without Sound HW acceleration. Even only basic HW acceleration leeds to early freezes. But without any HW acceleration I could play for about 2 hours. So perhaps disabling HW support results in longer periods between the freezings.

[Madmatt]

We appreciate all the time people are spending trying out various suggestions and reporting back. Just one comment about whats being sent in and reported. ALL info is valuable, even the overclocking type stuff because it is possible that while different people encounter basically the same type freeze, it could be manifested by a variety of different issues.

For that reason, keep on sending in what you see because as minor as you might think it is, it does help us pinpoint the trouble or rule out other possible avenues to pursue.

Madmatt

[EGP]

Originally posted by Moon:

klugman, when you run the cfg.bat program, and click on the "Troubleshooting" button, you will get a list of possible fixes/solutions based on a quick scan of your hardware. I bet that you will see something there to the effect that with overclocking the game won't work properly. So this isn't a bug as such, the game was never intended to work on overclocked systems, and we know that it doesn't.

Martin

Martin, I don't get this. You say that you know the game doesn't work with overclocking. Why would that be ? I mean, why should the game care even one bit if the system is overclocked, as long as it's stable ? Are you saying that the game has a built-in check that goes "oh, this CPU is running faster than its specification; I'd better make a random crash sometime" ? Wouldn't make any sense IMHO, unless of course the game was sponsored by AMD or Intel..

With a game this power-hungry, on the contrary, it seems necessary to get every last bit of performance out of your system, thus the more reason to overclock (within safe/stable limits of course)

Regarding the freezes, in my experience, if a system is overclocked too far, it virtually always results in a freeze of the whole PC, or a reboot; I don't think I've ever seen it result in only an application hanging/crashing.

Anyway, since people with no overclock also get these freezes, I doesn't seem like overclocking alone can be blamed for them.

Glad that work is underway to solve this problem nonetheless, no matter what the reason might be.

Cheers,

Erling

[Wehner]

- now, I am devastetd to report that the freezing/hanging came up again after five minutes gameplay. This happened with completely disabled Sound Hardware Support, without any spyware the scanner were aware of and with everything killed that moved in the background using EndItAll2.

Due to the apparently random nature of the hanging, you are almost forced logging statistical data on that matter. I myself am now convinced that it had nothing to do with Sound Hardware Support. I may have just had a lucky time when I was able to play ninety minutes in a row.

[klugman]

I wonder how many people that are having freezes/ctd's, also have the nforce2 chipset?

My mainboard is the MSI K7N2D.

Just a thought.