AAR, Terif (Axis) vs. Jollyguy (Allies)

[Jollyguy]

Okay, this is likely my final SC 2 game for awhile, as I want to enjoy Seattle’s Spring and Summer following an historically punishing Winter.

I decided rather than a flashy, creative strategy, to just get in the trenches with Terif (Axis), and have my Brits do their best to hinder and harass him.

Using what I’ve learned from the Master himself, I held France until May, then held Brest as long as possible in order to throw the Axis time table off for Spain, which Terif signaled was his target by diplo of his minors. Then I put a british corp in the Northern Spanish city, again, to delay, and also got IW 2, and upgraded my Gibralter corp. I bought Monty for the Home Islands and occupied Casablanca with a corp, which is when things got interesting.

Instead of shipping my Middle East HQ and army and tank back home, I hid them out of sight around Casablanca. He advanced headlong from Algeria expecting I believe only to find a light garrison, and he bumped into my reinforced garrison, including my Desert Spitfire. I took out a corp and army, so he pulled back, also forcing him to operate in air support. Meanwhile, Gibralter fell, but not before the RN exacted damage, including taking out another army at the cost of a sacrificed BB I had to leave in the Med to finish the job, following a fairly large naval battle that had ensued around Gibralter. But again, instead of retreating the RN entirely I made it look so, but lingered, and when the combined Axis navy probed into the Atlantic I came back and sank two Italian cruisers.

With the Luftwaffe to back him up he eventually took Casablanca, but instead of transporting the survivors home I went around the loop and back to Egypt which had been quite due to the protracted battle in Casablanca, and I entrenched there, including putting my army on the fortification. All the while I was building-out my corp allotment for the Home Islands. At the same time he had removed his picket boat from Malta, so I operated in my bomber before the Gibralter effect hit and amphibed my corp, and took that African city southeast and sealed him off from operating to Tobruk. He eventually showed up in Egypt, but only after having to march east by foot a good distance. Once the battle started it didn’t last too long as the Brits pulled back. I also sacrificed a BB at the Suez canal, which held the Axis up another two turns by blocking him from crossing too the Sinai until he sunk it with fighters (another trick I learned from Terif).

With the added time Uncle Joe took Iran and Iraq, while Finland joined the Axis unimpeded.

But meanwhile, out West, the Kriesmarine joined up with the Duce’s navy and caused trouble around the Home Islands, eventually blockading all convoy routes. This wasn’t broken until the Yanks joined, at which time another large naval battle ensued, which began with me sinking an amphib German army next to Brest, which I can only surmise was destined for either Ireland or to probe for a late Sea Lion. In that sea battle the losses were heavy for both sides, and I eventually broke it off, but the convoy routes are open for now. In the meantime he landed a corp in Southern England and took out a depleted RAF fighter and his ships destroyed my surviving French fighter, both which I had used to spot his navy with down south.

Meanwhile, in Russia, I believe the Germans tried to bluff toward Odessa to keep Uncle Joe behind the Dneiper, but instead the Russians left the riverline to take out three Wehrmact corps at the cost of an army, as Uncle Joe surmised that with the Axis taking neutrals and otherwise busy elsewhere and with the losses that they had sustained and mpps denied by holding onto Egypt, etc., that it was an opportunity to leave their trenches.

It’s April, 1942, and where we are at is the Siberians have arrived; Uncle Joe still holds the Dnieper line and Iraq and Iran; The Brits are licking their wounds but have a solid garrison on the Home Islands and a still viable navy; and what the Yanks are up to is a State secret.

Bob

[SeaMonkey]

Ah Ha!!! I've seen this MO before, way to go Jolly, I believe you're in control.....for the moment ......anyway.

Good Luck!

[Jollyguy]

Oh, Terif is the Master because he knows how to improvise, I wouldn’t say I’m in control.

Forgot to add that he DOW’ed Sweden pre-Barbarossa, probably to evict me from the Nordic region following my interest in that area over many games. I didn’t try to hold Norway, just delayed him from Narvik as long as possible. Doing so threw consumed resources and time at his end from troops that could have been used elsewhere.

Should also add that the Brits have suffered their share of land losses. I think I’ve rebuilt four destroyed corps, coming from Brest; Gibralter; one from the Spanish city north of Casablanca that got trapped; and the one sacrificed to take that Italian, African city to buy time. If Terif’s reading maybe he has the total loss count, but it’s been plenty already on both sides all around, in land, naval, and air units. And I know we’ve both incurred significant mpp costs in amphibs and transporting and operating also.

Bob

[Terif]

Yep, very expensive land warfare from the beginning for both sides and large naval battles are the essence of this game

Axis already sunk 6 allied battleships and 4 cruisers, the survivors heavily damaged with more than 40 strength points lost in total while most of the axis fleet survived and got repaired in the meantime after the battle of Ireland-Brest. The sub fleets had to reinforce and resupply after the battle but are now hunting merchant ships on the convoy routes again .

[Jollyguy]

Ah, I disagree. The Allies have sent their share of Axis ships to the bottom also, and the Allies still have all four (damaged) carriers remaining. My guess is the Allies have lost more ships, but then they have more ships to lose, and the Yanks just got another cruiser. The Allied command will determine how much if any ship repairing to do.

Bob

[Blashy]

Jollyguy has come a long way from when he played me.

I am sure he would wipe the floor with me now with one of my crazy strategies.

IMHO he is probably the second best player in SC2.

Probably a toss up between him and Rambo.

[Liam]

agreed JG HR Rambo are all good competition! for '39 weiss, I do not know about pfiefer? or some PLiga's though.. JG is trying stuff I haven't yet dreamed to try. of course noone here listed has beaten my Russia except Rambo 4 Xs ever out of 30. So each has their Prefered side

Originally posted by Blashy:

Jollyguy has come a long way from when he played me.

I am sure he would wipe the floor with me now with one of my crazy strategies.

IMHO he is probably the second best player in SC2.

Probably a toss up between him and Rambo.

[jon_j_rambo]

I've played JG a couple times, I didn't take the guy serious & he beat me (long time ago). He likes the Allies & plays them well, mostly conservative, low risk. Haven't seen his Axis game, he doesn't like the bad guys.

Anyhow, I'm sure JG isn't going to play much, he lives in Seattle. After 7+ months of rain, he's ready to get outside & garden.

-Legend

[jon_j_rambo]

[Win] Axis vs Jollyguy --- took London

[Win] Axis vs Jollyguy --- too much Legend

[Loss] Axis vs Jolly --- Spain Diplo 39%.

[Draw] Axis vs Jolly --- Time issue, called.n

My record against JG, was early days.

[Liam]

Yeah, I recall a 1.2 version game vs JG, our only 2 games, I was sort of wishing he'd surrender. I had to drive Tigers into the Urals and into the Caucasus all the way into 1945! I was a bit concerned he might get a draw, until I double checked the Victory Conditions! He is the only SC2er to take me into 1946, closest is Rambo!

As Allies, I didn't give JG a chance, he was torn a part by about 8 Allied Fighters in the West and Major Russian Forces in the East. He was inexperienced but showed a dedication and ability to adapt beyond what I'd expected! I thought he was a pushover in other words I had to take him very very seriously!

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

[Win] Axis vs Jollyguy --- took London

[Win] Axis vs Jollyguy --- too much Legend

[Loss] Axis vs Jolly --- Spain Diplo 39%.

[Draw] Axis vs Jolly --- Time issue, called.n

My record against JG, was early days.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Just a matter of time before Terif pulls another rabbit (or something) out of his hat. I've lost faith that any of you guys can beat him...

[Trying some reverse psychology for a change]

[Jollyguy]

Update: Massive battle around Baghdad, where I set an ambush by only placing an army in the city, but kept about 15 Russian units hidden in the hills north and east and around Tehran, along with my British bomber, fighter, army, tank and HQ. Since my Turkish gambit game, where I discovered that Allied minors provided full supply, I was able to retreat my Egyptian units and utilize them in this battle.

Terif softened up the city with two fighters, which I responded by operating in three corps. He then attacked, and my Russians and Brits poured out from the hills, while my British bomber around Tehran and unsupported American Bomber in Kuwait bombed Amman and Syria to prevent Axis reinforcements from operating in, and to reduce supply. Two Russian paratroopers taste battle for the first time, dropping in the midst of the German concentration to take out their HQ, while the British fighter and elite reinforced Siberian fighter draw fire from the two Luftwaffe units, leaving the other Russian fighter and unsupported American fighter to provide ground support.

The battle raged for about four months, with the tally of killed units for the Axis being 1 HQ, 1 fighter, 2 armies and 5 corps (many at 4 or less supply), at the cost of 1 Russian army, 2 corps, and 1 British army. The Russians and Brits advanced and retook Amman and Syria, and have just bombed Cairo for the first time with a British bomber.

Meanwhile, emboldened by their Middle East victory, the Russians, incorrectly assumed the Axis to be low on land units and tried to take out a probing level 1 German tank in the city north of Moscow, which Uncle Joe abandoned without a fight. But this time it was the Axis that sprung a trap, taking out 3 Russian armies and a corp in a joint attack there and around Kharkov, which Uncle Joe incorrectly thought he could defend for longer than one turn. The Russians, realizing they couldn't defend everywhere, retreated, taking out one German corp on the way backwards. The Russians also retake a mine with a motorized corp from Svestapol, while the Germans and Finns finally take Leningrad.

Meanwhile, out West, the Allies take Brest when the Axis extract their German corp and replace it with one of Il Duce's corps, who doesn't offer much resistance after a combined attack.

The Axis continue to raid the Iraqi convoys without an Allied response, but with Brest taken and the Allied scientists busy, that might change soon. It's September, 1942, and that's where we sit.

Bob

[Blashy]

Interesting fight. Good AAR.

[Terif]

Yep, the Gulf War was exellently fought by the allied commander - the entire german Africa Korps got annihilated after its HQ had been destroyed by a combined russian-UK attack with paras and UK tanks...only one airfleet was able to escape from the original forces. Nevertheless a new HQ commander got dispatched to Alexandria immediately together with fresh troops that are now holding the Sinai. Russian forces seem to have given up a possible liberation of Egypt and instead operated back home to mother Russia for its defence...

Here Axis meanwhile conquered the front cities as well as Leningrad, Moskov with both cities north of it, Kharkov and Voronezh - destroying all of its defenders merciless and without much effort as most of the russian forces were busy in Middle East...so Axis lost a lot of units there and the ressources are in allied posession now, but on the bright side it made things in Russia much easier .

Archangel just got cut off, the daring russian corps from Sevastopol raiding one of the mines immediately destroyed.

The last russian baltic cruiser is now sunk by italian and german battleships. Axis ships are patrolling the Atlantic, stopping allied merchant ships trying to sneak past them...so far the combined italian-german fleet is ruling the seven seas... - but as I know the allied commander his fleet got repaired and equiped with Gun Laying Radar and Anti-Sub-Warfare technologies to soon challenge the might of the Axis fleets...

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

Just a matter of time before Terif pulls another rabbit (or something) out of his hat. I've lost faith that any of you guys can beat him...

[Trying some reverse psychology for a change]

True cool idea!

Let me try that... "Boy howdy!

Sure is great!

We ain't got yer l-o-o-o-n-g ago

PROMISED

Battle of the Atlantic!"

Well,

Soon enough - MAY be

You'll have some X-tra ordinary ammunition

To work with!

Now wouldn't THAT be 'at Cat's meow! :cool:

Yep, I echo/yodel the sentiments here.

BOTH these guys are top-tier

Players.

Though,

BOTH - can be had,

Since,

They haven't even played the next!

Great gunner/slinger

Poised, oh, over to OK-Corral,

Not making much noise - just now,

And for better OR worse

Depending if you go - forward

Or in reverse... not much regarded

As ANYBODY's pal.

[Terif]

Update – we are now in April 1943:

The naval battle is just heating up again...

During the last year Bismarck and its italian escort battlefleet Andrea Doria cleared together the Baltic from all remaining russian ships. Having fullfilled this task their commanders get both presented with medals of honour in Berlin while their ships were repaired in german ports and prepared for their long journey to join with Axis main fleet in the Atlantic.

When storms and mud set in, both battleships set sail from their shelter in norwegian waters around Scotland towards their destination point east of Canada...unfortunately the enemy must have broken the code and intercepted communications...no enemy ship or air was able to spot them, nevertheless allied vessels broke off their bombardement of french soil and moved exactly at the crucial moment towards the predetermined meeting point...and so the hunt for Bismarck with their support ship Andrea Doria begun and their last battle took place in the triangle of Canada-Iceland-Ireland.

As one sub went missing on the open seas and communications could not be restored, intelligence also speculates about one of the german enigma machines having fallen into enemy hands and to be on the safe side immediately change communication codes.... :cool:

The entire US and Royal Navy – except for the carriers that were grounded due to storms and mud - engaged in February 1943 the Axis fleet breaking out into the Atlantic. Bismarck changed course after the first exchange of blows by both fleets while Andrea Doria was ordered to make a stand and face the enemy in ship to ship battle to draw off the enemy fire so Bismarck could escape in the stormy weather...at least for some time...Royal Navy hunted Bismarck till nearly St. John´s where it got finally sunk in a last battle....Axis main forces unfortunately were too far away from the battlefield when it started to save the day and eventually broke off the journey north as they had to recognice it was too late for rescue for any of those axis battleships. Better not to go in battle on the enemies terms, but to move back to fight another day on a time of the own choosing.

At the end of this day Bismarck and Andrea Doria were sunk, but Allies also sustained extensive damage on their ships: Their 4 battleships lost after all 11 strength points, 5 cruisers another 9 points and the US sub got also several strength points reduced.

US ships already showed upgrades to GLR 1 and ASW 2, UK ships to GLR1, all ships repaired from previous battles and additional US subs built. Since they lost more than 40 strength points before and all ships seem to be upgraded, Allies invested heavily into their navy....but so did Axis...and Axis main naval forces are still ruling the southern Atlantic, hunting down every convoy ship coming from Middle East .

Meanwhile on the ground western Allies were quiet as they obviously needed all ressources for the naval war and after the loss of a US Paratrooper in front of Bordeaux even retreated and started evacuating their forces at Brest without much of a fight...probably to man England and defend it against a possible Sealion as all allied ships were used in the hunt for Bismarck and no vessel left to defend their home Island .

In Russia in contrary the largest battle of this war took place around Rostov-Stalingrad during the hunt for Bismarck:

Axis conquered Archangel in 1942 and secured the northern part of Russia before setting their main army in march against Rostov that got conquered in fall 1942. Immediately after the fall of Rostov - before snowfall - Russia started a massive counteroffensive with their 3 tile deep stacked forces gathered east of it...in the second axis turn of this battle snow set in and since only one Axis airfleet was in striking range vs 2 russian ones at this time, it seemingly encouraged the russian commander to continue the battle despite heavy losses. Russia sent every man able to hold a weapon into battle and also most Axis troops operated into Kharkov-Voronezh towards the fight and as neither side was willing to step back, this winter battle turned into the most likely crucial battle of this war. Air was pretty much neutralized by snow or mud and so the ground forces were on their own and the big clash happened between the land forces during the 5 Winter turns of 1942/43.

Pulver clouds darkened the sky in a 100 mile radius around the battlefield...when the long night was finally over, no tree was standing any more and every square inch digged over by grenade shells and explosions. One of the two german Paratroopers got a heroes burial as well as a tank, 4 armies and 3 corps. But on the other side Russia lost its core forces in this battle: 2 tanks, 8 armies, 4 corps and the rest of its forces bombed to pieces and out of fighting shape. At the end of the day only old men and children without rifles had been thrown into the meat grinder...newly arrived troops without tech upgrades sent into death....before the russian commander eventually ended the dying and broke off the battle, retreating behind Stalingrad and river Don – followed by the victorious german forces...not granting them a rest .

[ May 18, 2007, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Liam]

Sounds a lot like what me and Rambo have done, Great Battle of the South and North Atlantic, Axis Navy challenging for naval domination due to overexertion by the Royal Navy and US Navy! The Allied Navys can nolonger sleep and rest on their laurels or take too much damage in fruitless attempts to travel beyond their supplies alone! With Tech and time the Axis can plot for a threat or possibly dominance in certian Theatres!

Sounds very intrigueing, the Great Eastern Conflict, the Final Battle for Total Supremacy, that usually spells the death of one side if there isn't enough units to retreat, regroup and fight again! Seems as if JollyGuy sent his men too soon..before he had Solid Punching Power to knockout Terif. Was it a close Battle?

[Jollyguy]

Terif summarizes it well. As to his battleships, I'm asssuming when they made it to the Baltic from the Med they must have come the long way in the Atlantic, so, I decided to keep my sub in the vicinity of Brest/England, and then to scout backwards several turns after he sunk my Russian Baltic fleet, in case he tried to make a run for it. He generally likes to concentrate forces so it seemed he might try this, and it's also a tactic from other AAR's. I know Rambo does it a lot.

In Russia, yes, a huge battle. I gambled in January, 1943, and moved several new units forward, after I took out two of his units, hoping to get snow, which you probably get a high percentage of the time. Then I would upgrade my next turn. But alas, the weather Gods favored Terif, as mud hit instead...and then the Wehrmacht hit me. On balance I would say the Russian battle has been close to 1 to 1 in losses, with a bias to Terif. Its been a Russian meat grinder, no doubt. He should take Stalingrad soon though, probably this turn (May, 1943), and although this is by the far the best Allied game I've played against him, my guess is that he'll wear me down.

All-in-all the best game I've played, as each successive game against him has gotten more and more interesting. I may not achieve my goal of beating him, and have to leave that to another capable player.

Bob

[Terif]

Yep a really good game from Jollyguy with many excellently fought battles and traps set up by him .

Only a bit too aggressive sometimes - especially last turn the allied commander got overwhelmed by an over-aggressive mood and counterattacked again - this time in the wrong season and place.

He destroyed 3 german corps, but now it is already May 1942 with clear summer weather so the Axis air can fly again and support their ground troops - wreaking havoc amongst the russsian units...Stalingrad conquered, 3 russian armies destroyed as well as an airfleet standing too close to the front now...the survivors heavily damaged.

In the West the city of Brest is about to fall after the last US corps in France gets killed by advancing german troops and Brest port is already axis.

[Terif]

June 1943 – the battle for the Atlantic has begun...

In clear weather the combined US-UK fleet engages the first german spotter subs west of Portugal. Allies got besides a free french airfleet (destroyed in England during the first naval battle more than a year ago by ship bombardement) also 2 free french cruisers that are also already corroding at the bottom of the sea, but that means despite their heavy losses they still possess 4 carriers, 4 battleships, 6 cruisers and a sub, upgraded to GLR 1 and the US ships also to ASW 2 – all sent into battle now.

The new german sub U-73 is one of the first to encounter the enemy...still untrained it is unable to evade the enemy attacks - the first victim of this confrontation. U-47 on the other side higly experienced and already rewarded with 5 medals proves not to be such an easy target as the green recruits of U-73...and so they not only manage to survive at str 6 but also to deliever massive damage to the attackers in return .

In the Axis turn the weather gods save the day for Allies as they send stormy weather so Axis ships only do half the damage they would do normally...otherwise the allied fleet would not exist any more after challenging the might of the german-italian fleet in axis territory...

Only 5 wolfpacks are in range of the battlefield as they are spread out to hunt merchant shipping...german naval command immediately orders the remaining subs to approach the combat area with full speed...and so Axis surface fleet together with the wolfpacks currently present – several of them with 5 experience medals – only manages to sink 2 US battleships and a US cruiser in the counterstrike....3 other cruisers reduced to str 4, 5 and 6. At least now all US battleships are at the bottom of the sea .

Meanwhile it is quiet on the ground in all other theaters: Brest got occupied by german forces, Russia retreated back into its mountain fortresses in Ural and Caucasus while Russia is beeing cut in two...both sides are licking their wounds and doing repairs – the decissive battle is now fought on sea for naval supremacy in the Atlantic and all other forces are holding their breath...watching the clash of these 2 gigantic fleets...

[ May 18, 2007, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[jon_j_rambo]

*** Breaking News ***

Rumor has it, Terif is scared to play against my new strategy! He is dodging me!

[Terif]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

*** Breaking News ***

Rumor has it, Terif is scared to play against my new strategy! He is dodging me!

Weekdays = workdays...

Nevertheless we managed it now towards the weekend to squeeze in a session before Rambo had to go on his long trip . So far I can see no new strategy, only the same 4 rockets in 1940 his Axis already used the last half a dozen games .

[Terif]

Back to the game here:

Independence Day - July 4, 1943:

The naval battle is over...ending in total axis victory at sea and from now on undisputed naval supremacy of the combined italian-german fleets...african and portuguese ports are swamped with shipwrecked british and american sailors, picked up from their sinking ships all over the ocean... . Italian and german seaman will never forget that sight till the horizon of allied ships beyond numbers...going down in flammes as far as the eye can reach...the tale of this day will never be forgotten by them and told their children and grandchildren....

At the end of the day, the last barely floating allied wreckages flee in panic into all directions, followed and hunted down by german wolfpacks, cruisers and italian battleships while 3 airfleets train sub hunting at the US submarine cought near Portugal and finally sunk by a german cruiser.

Axis naval command is very pleased with the performance of its fleets and rewards all ship captains with the highest decoration. All odds against them: the enemy superior in numbers (15 allied vs 11 axis fleets - the others out of battle range) , better allied tech (GLR 1, ASW 2) and also weather in favour of the enemy, Axis forces still managed to achieve with minimal own losses a complete naval victory .

Total losses of the battle:

Axis: One german sub sunk (U-73)

Allies: 1 US carrier, 2 US battleshipgroups, 2 US cruiser and 1 US subfleet at the bottom of the sea.

Relative naval strength the day after:

Axis: 14 fleets

Allies: 9 fleets

On the ground it is still quiet...no western allied forces anywhere seen in mainland Europe any more...german forces approaching Caucasus fortress....preparing their assault against the russian stronghold.

[Blashy]

This game is over now, the allies can not purchase cheap subs like the Germans, they can get two max. So if the fleet is inferior in numbers to Axis, the Atlantic is Axis for the game.

Jollyguy must have streched out too far away from having good supply, being in range of enemy air means close to Axis coastline. Right?

Good game though.

[Jollyguy]

Ah, but the Allies pull a surprise themselves. While the Axis garrison in Egypt sleeps peacefully, with the Germans frustrated for lack of good beer, and the Itailans frustrated that they can't pinch the local, burqa-clad Arab women for fear that their hands will get whacked off by jealous Arab men, awake to hear the claxon sounds of a huge Allied convoy at their shores.

Ship-after-ship-after-ship appears in the Red Sea, so many that some pop up in the Med. And then, with Axis eyes glued to the site of the armada at sea, they hear the rumble of transport planes and look up to see Russian paratroopers descending from the sky, joined by Russian marines rushing ashore. The German HQ is then subjected to three air attacks by British and American airfleets, then killed by the Russians, who secure Alexandria, leaving two German corps without a leader. One ship moves into the Suez canal to secure access to the Med for the next wave of troops.

The Western Allies have arrived from France, where Eisenhower and Montgomery earlier had agreed that the wall of European fortifications facing them would be like banging their heads against the proverbial wall. So, 3/4's of a year earlier, during the depths of the Winter of 1942 and Spring of 1943, they had embarked before the Wehrmacht could fully detect their movement, a single US corp that they could see left in place so as not to give away the rest his comrades embarking from Brest two-by-two for Egypt.

Meanwhile, in Russia, Uncle Joe is given the task of buying time while the Western Allies expand their African front.

As to the naval war, Terif summarizes well, the Allies got the worst of it, but in doing so it allowed the Allied convoy to reach the arrows unhindered over successive turns and proceed around the Cape. I also decided not to challenge the Axis navy too close to the shores, just in case Terif laid one of his famous traps, which he did. I suspect he expected me to land in Casablanca instead, where his three Luftwaffe fighters that sank my sub would have shredded any landing force. Instead Uncle Joe has been given a respite from those fighters, and the Allies have the core of a navy remaining to build on.

It's July, 1943, and I will be able to take Terif into 1944 with robust forces all around, which is an accomplishment for me. I'm taking notes, noting mistakes made by my Allies, and believe with a few modifications they will put on an even better showing next game, exhibiting that if someone is determined enough and patient enought that I believe Terif can be beaten. In a later post I will detail further thoughts that would bought me more time, and provided the Allies more time to apply their mpp advantage.

Bob