Sea Lion Question

[MajorRH]

With over 100,000 French and Belgian troops evacuted to England from Dunkirk, does anyone have info on what these forces did in the UK. Could they have been utilized in the event of a german invasion?

In preparing my Order of Battle for Sea Lion, I am trying to determine whether some number of now UK based French Units could be reasonably introduced into the Mod.

My guess is that upon invasion, surviving French Units would reorganize and form perhaps 3 or 4 Brigades that could operate at some basic level. They may operate in local areas as the Home Guard would have done.

[Timskorn]

This prompts me to a question I've been meaning to ask. In another game I'm in, I decided to go for a Sealion and took England. Did the British people not have the means (whether in equipment and/or men) to draft an emergency military force to repel the German invasion? I can't imagine the bulk of their fighting men were already in operational units. Germany organized units to defend the homeland, Japan was ready to throw everyone at an Allied landing of the mainland, and of course the US would have organized forces (and which they do in-game). Did Italy organize home defense units?

My question is, why don't the Brits get some free units after a week or two of fighting in England? Just a question. I feel for gameplay purposes it's currently balanced well, because you need garrison units in all three cities to keep the Brits from sabotaging everything, which is a representation of their continued resistance in England.

[Bill101]

The French troops were all shipped off back to France after Dunkirk, and the British sent what was called the second BEF.

When De Gaulle first called on the French to continue the fight there were very, very few French in Britain, and not all of those agreed with him! Going from memory I think that the Free French in the UK originally had about 1,000 men, of whom a sizeable proportion were Spanish exiles who had been in France when the Germans invaded. Include a brigade by all means, but don't overdo it.

As to Timskorn's question on British weaponry, the answer is that they didn't have enough, and much of what Britain had had was lost either at Dunkirk or in the battles following.

My suggestion is to give UK forces very low basic combat stats, but with the opportunity to upgrade to higher levels of infantry weapons and anti-tank than the Germans (i.e. 3 as opposed to say 2). If their starting stats are proportionately lower than the Germans they will balance out (i.e. a fully upgraded UK unit with 3 upgrades will be equal to a German with 2).

The idea being that the British will be able to field units, but giving them the weaponry with which to actually fight the Germans on an even footing will require a greater investment, and many units will have to make do with very little indeed as there won't be enough weapons (i.e. MPPs) to go around.

I hope that makes sense!

[jon_j_rambo]

There's no way I'll ever lose England. Not sure who you're playing, but if they need British civilians converted to save the Island, I can't help you there.

[Liam]

The British had a home guard. They also did a great deal to prepare for the invasion with what they had. It may have been fairly basic in places....Considering getting the logistics of a Sea Lion it's hard to say what would've happened. Several half strength corps popping up all over the place fully entrenched without upgrades would probably represent a small home island defense force

[arado234]

Liam I saw a good show on this(I think it was called SS G.B.)The move shows the Germans getting on in force(upto this point the war follows the historical path).The Brits do prettywell what you suggested and get wiped out.The British high command felt that should Germany land in force England would fall.It also has the British navy(whats left of it) and all other important items and persons coming to Canada.

[jon_j_rambo]

Terif got lippy, he lost London & Manchester to the Legend.

[arado234]

Rambo,could this be the upset.

[jon_j_rambo]

Nah, I ended up losing, got my rear handed by the Russians

But at least I was the first to cool his jets so to speak.

[Lech]

Sea Lion didn't have much chance of success, which is why the German generals were opposed to it.

The main difficulty was landing troops and the supplies they would need.

Germany had no suitable landing craft, and were going to use towed river barges to get across the Channel. Since the Royal Navy controlled the Channel, the barges would have been run over by RN destroyers drowning all the men aboard the barges. Any craft crossing would also have the RAF to deal with.

The Brits had mined all the port facilities that the Germans might to deny them to German shipping in case of an invasion.

Paratroops were not a solution either since the can't bring heavy armament or sufficient supplies along to be effective for very long.

[SeaMonkey]

Maybe FJs were the answer, if properly planned for. Expanding the airlanding capabilities to capture a couple of airfields, some adaptations for external fuel tanks for fighters or an effective policy for RAF neutralization, it may not have been necessary to use the sea lanes to the UK initially.

Didn't the RN have control of the seas around Crete?

Granted the effective window for the airlanding forces would close as sea logistics are of paramount importance for Sealion success. Without RAF coverage how long would it take the Luftwaffe to secure the English Channel?

What truly could the German armed forces have accomplished had they embarked upon a plan for the eventual invasion of UK beginning with Fall Weiss(1st SC turn)?

[jon_j_rambo]

Dudes, the Buntas couldn't even supply Libya, they couldn't even win the air battle. You really thing they were going to land boats? You really think the entire RN, RAF, & American naval & air resources wouldn't be thrown into the battle?

That's just to get to the ground battle. The United States would have poured in massive ground forces, etc.

You think those German supply lines/ports would have survived?

Give me a break!

The Germans were overated. They never defeated a real opponent. They had lots of help from the countries they did beat, mostly sleeping farmers.

[arado234]

Rambo you seem to forget the Amis. were neutral.Since it never happened you cant say what or if America would have done if England was invaded.

If the U.S.A.was so prepared to help why did they not get involved before France fell(like in WW1).If they had all these forces you claim they had and were prepared to use wouldnt it have been alot better to stop the German advance in its tracks?Once France fell,alot of Americans gave England about 6 weeks to survive.How come they didnt just start sending everything they had over to help right away.

The Germans never were really prepared to attack England because they didnt expect such quick success over the Allies.The fact that they let the B.E.F. escape proves that Hitler was reluctant to attack.Weather they could have pulled off Sealion with the B.E.F. captured who knows?

As far as the Germans being overated explain to me why it took so long to defeat them.Considering the fact the Allies had Ultra(july 1940 it started to payoff) and knew most of the German moves before hand.We grossly out numbered them and outproduced them.Some say we werent prepared to suffer the losses by moving faster then we did.The faster the war is over the less peopled killed.Just think of how many lives would have been saved if the Germans didnt have all that time to bring on the final solution.Id say the Germans were one of the best(if not the best)fighting force ever created to fight a major conflict.

[SeaMonkey]

Rambo I know you pride yourself on brashness and I realize a lot of what you say is "tongue in cheek" philosophy. Remember your World History classes...did you go? OK, I know you at least graduated from HS which means surely you passed American History...right?

So its Friday night and you don't have a date, don't take it out on the Buntas. Now there are some cheap chicks that would possibly chat with you on line and make you feel better.....go ahead and turn loose of some of those greenbacks, they tell me those Russian babes will talk to anyone.

But, just in case you would like to brush up on your history, especially the escapades of the American Army in WW2, try "An Army at Dawn".

You'll get a different perspective about the early performance of the Americans which could be applicable to this discussion.

Now remember your Churchillian cliches, "The further back you examine the past, the greater your insight into the future"...or something to that effect.

Might be good advice for you to follow if you expect to be successful trading equities.