Sc1 AI when Turkey Joins Axis & Suggestions for SC2

[Edwin P.]

In a recent SC1 Game vs the AI I gave Turkey to the Axis. What Happened?

Turkey conquered Vichy then moved onto Egypt. When France surrendered Turkish units (1 army and 1 Corps and 1 German HQ) in the Sinai were isolated. They took the Suez (I found out here that the transit hexes in the Atlantic vanish if this happens) and then began a long series of useless attacks on Cairo.

When Germany DOWed Russia, no German units attacked Russia from Turkey. Only 1 Turkish corps advance into Turkey.

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Suggestions for AI & Game Improvements

a. If Turkey takes Beruit prior to French Surrender Turkey should annex Syria and this territory should not become a part of Vichy France.

b. If Turkey takes Syria the Axis AI should select from 5 Strategic Possiblities for future Action:

</font>

• Conquer Iraq</font>
• Conquer Egypt</font>
• Prepare to Invade Russia from Turkey (if Russian War Readiness > XX%)</font>
• Prepare to invade Russia from the Black Sea & Turkey (if Russian War Readiness > XX%)</font>
• Place Minor Force on Russian Border to force Russians to guard Border Area (if Russian War Readiness > XX%)</font>

c. Although the Turkish AI did advance on Cairo and laid seige to it with the assistance of a Bomber in Turkey, the Italians never advanced from the West to cut off Cairo from reinforcements. So every time the Corps holding Cairo was reduced by attack the human player merely reinforced it during his turn.

d. If Turkey joins the Axis after the Frence Surrender the the Axis AI should consider mounting a compaign to conquer or liberate Iraq as this will give it added production and prevent its use for Lend Lease shipments to Russia.

e. The Italian Navy should consider venturing into the Black Sea (if Turkey is Axis Allied) to attack the sole Russian Navy unit and perhaps send a lone corps or two via transports to invade the Russian rear and seize its oil resources.

[ April 05, 2005, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Korut Zelva]

errrrrrrr

AI Axis with Turkey

I doubt this is high priority.

Sometimes I think you think too much Edwin.

[John Hugo]

Great ideas Edwin. It would have been a very different war in the Mediterranean had the Axis invasion been thru Turkey. Rommels' main problem was supply. With that obstacle removed, I think the Axis would easily have overrun the Brittish possessions,in the Middle East. And yes, the Turks should annex Syria.

[Edwin P.]

John Hugo, how true. If Turkey had joined the Axis it would have changed everything, and in SC2 with diplomacy chits this is much more likely to occur than in SC1.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Korut Zelva:

errrrrrrr

AI Axis with Turkey

I doubt this is high priority.

Sometimes I think you think too much Edwin.

Actually these are good points. Points to improve the AI.

[Korut Zelva]

I mean

if the condition for turks to join the Axis are more or less the same as SC1

we can safely presume it's not going to happen...

ever... in a million games

[Liam]

Turkey joining the Axis? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, why? I'm curious, after the civil war there and the upheaval since WW1 and Italy's desire to carve up Turkey for herself why would Turkey ever join the Axis for any reason? no reason is my thought but I do not know much about WW2 Turkish Neutrality and Political Stance towards Fascism and Nazi Germany/Socialist Italy. I think all this would depend on Italy's Hungry Desires which with their unpredictable leadership would've probably frightened the Turks to which end, I don't know.

I think what the game represents in the end with Ultimate Axis victory of Russia, Turkey's inability to defend herself and becoming a puppet and being carved up. Not a military power on her own conducting a War!

I think it's safe to say just this much extra, spending a load of Chits on Turkey as Germany with Italy's over expansion fever for the Eastern Med being a safe assumption in the only way you get an Axis Turkey, either that or a Turkey fearful and practically caving in like Austria to avoid being invaded? Correct?

Also lets worry more about Spain, a bigger player with a direct route to Gibraltar, Canaries, and other valuable resources for hammering the Allies at sea...She was doable, with the right sort of resources spent on her, perhaps Minors should have War Readiness<not just a Pro Allied Coup in Yugo> not like all of them were unsuspecting ;)but then again that could be extensive programming, but then again we're already creating political chits for these guys, perhaps camping out too many units just like USSR readiness pumps up should also influence, making Cookie Cutters slightly more difficult, especially WITHOUT good intel tech so that it's harder to camouflage one's intentions...

P.S. to prevent Allied A-historical neutral training missions for their troops, Political chits should be effected by DOWs.. DoWs of neighbors or same Ideology Nations should cause a lose of a chit per DOW or some RR Minor Punishment. Oh lovely, a whole other subject to work on!!! :eek:

[JerseyJohn]

Greece was swinging toward the Axis, diplomatically, when Italy invaded it. That was a surprise move by Mussolini and totally absurd. In order to set up his surprise he pulled troops out of Albania and ordered the invasion of mountainous Greece to begin with the onset of bad weather! It was a surprise for sure!

If Greece would have agreed to a Bulgaria type treaty it's a near certainty that Yugoslavia would have followed suite (the ruling monarchs were cousins and generally acted in conjuction with each other).

-- So, I think there should be a great likelihood that both Yugoslavia and Greece would join the Axis under the proper conditions. Unfortunately it's hard to factor in something as incomprehensible as Il Duce's wartime activities.

Regarding Turkey, it wasn't so much that Italy sought to carve it up after WWI as Britain and France wanting to see it carved up with themselves ending up in control of the Dardenelles. They manipulated Greece into a war against Turkey during the early 1920s and at Versailles they awarded Italy a number of islands that had been part of the Ottoman Empire. I think one of them was Rhodes.

During the 20s and 30s Mussolini cast longing glances at Switzerland, Yugoslavia, and Greece. Once the war started he added Southern France, Tunisia and Egypt to his wish list.

During WWII Germany used Italy as a bargaining chip against Switzerland, hinting they'd support an Italian invasion if Switzerland didn't help them with various favors made possible by their neutrality.

-- Strangely enough, in earlier versions of SC I did get Turkey to join the Axis. I think the conditions were Italian control of Greece, Egypt and Iraq. If you're having that kind of game as the Axis, you usually don't need Turkey anyway!

Historically I don't think Turkey would have joined Germany unless she'd actually defeated the USSR and in the process evicted it from the Caucasus. In the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, Turkey received the southern part of the Isthmus and was forceably evicted during early days of Soviet rule.

I think the Turks would definitely have wanted restoration of their Caucasus holdings as a condition for joining the Axis.

This area is shown on the map:

[Korut Zelva]

alliance with Turkey is possible if the UK is near surrender and Yugoslavia and Greece are under Axis control. Favorable status with fascist minors is also required for Turkey; i.e., Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria are activated and have not been attacked.

[Ron]

Italy's suprise invasion of Greece was also what did in any chance of an Axis alliance with Franco and Spain. IIRC Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were having a conference to discuss/negotiate further agreements when the 'news' hit. Hitler was incensed and Franco thereafter wanted nothing to do with such mad partners. I like the idea of enhanced and varied diplomacy but on the other hand real world politics are much more complicated. IMO the chance of Spain joining the Axis, let alone Turkey, would be very, very rare with an aggressive Germany and Italy.

JJ, that's an interesting tidbit regarding Switzerland. Where did you read that?

Ron

[JerseyJohn]

Ron, and an interesting tidbit about Franco, makes perfect sense. He was cold and calculating, the idea of throwing in with those two would have been completely contrary to his nature.

I read that Swiss footnote a few years back when all the stories were coming out about the bank activity during the war. I believe that was mentioned in defense of the Swiss negotiating in plundered treasuries on behalf of the Germans. A similar story continued with the German/Swiss situatio after Italy's withdrawal from the war. Hitler would periodically send out rumors that he would invade Switzerland in order to motivate them to greater readiness as a safeguard against an Allied Invasion!

From the mid-nineties on there have been many odds and ends coming out regarding Switzerland in WWII. Most of them are a bit foolish in seeking to impose collaboration guilt on a nation surrounded by two very agressive and powerful nations.

One that I like was of a complaint by Hitler. Switzerland at times fed electric power into southern Germany when it's dams were hit. It also manufactured goods such as ball bearings and even tanks when German industry was being hard hit. The United States showed it's dissatisfaction by deliberately having bomber missions veer offcourse, dropping bombs on Swiss territory. Hitler's complaint was that the Swiss Air Force (using mainly German fighters!) was always quick to foray against Luftwaffe aircraft unintentionally flying across it's borders, but they never did so against American bombers. This would have been late 43 and 44. I'm really not sure where I read these things, possibly as notes in books about the Swiss bankers.

[Ron]

JJ, yes very interesting and possibly even SOP for the day. Last night I picked up a used copy of Shirer's Berlin Diary and have only begun reading, but already am captivated. As you may well know the author was a Berlin correspondent, and his immediate impressions of the years leading to the war add colour and flavour to an otherwise 'dry' history. His observations of the German people and the ruling Nazis are both hilarious and chilling, and even the apathy and false cheeriness of the American public typified by a cartoon in the New Yorker from the late 30's showing a woman looking up from a newspaper and asking her husband, "Who is this Hitler and what does he want?"

Anyways looking forward to playing SC2 when it is released.

Ron

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Ron:

IMO the chance of Spain joining the Axis, let alone Turkey, would be very, very rare with an aggressive Germany and Italy.

Good point.

I believe that you can reflect this in SC2 with an event script that would make Turkey and Spain less pro axis if Greece, Vichy France or Switzerland was attacked by the Axis.

Another event script could make Spain more pro Axis if the British declared war on neutral Ireland, Italy, Norway, Belgium or Denmark.

Also, re: Turkey. This nation stayed out of the war partially because BOTH Germany and the Allies exerted diplomatic pressure on it. If the Allies in SC2 fail to expend diplomatic chits on Turkey then it will be more likely to join the Axis.

[ April 23, 2005, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Liam]

I like the fresh influx of Ideas and by the more educated Historians here.

This is World Politics. I do not know what motivated Franco not to join the Axis<other than he was smart enough to wait to see who really won the war> The Sea Lion Invasion I suppose makes it apparent in the West Anyways of an Axis Victory altogether and pretty accurate for basic Politics.

Italy was hardly a World Power, she had a decent Navy but that she'd of likely failed to conquor Switzerland as she had also failed to conquor Greece by herself and was actually losing Albania ;)In SC she should be phazed down as most Games phaze her down to a satelite capable of merely transporting German Goods and reinforcing her own losses

Turkey? If one of us knew of the leadership of theirs at the time, would give a lot away as to why they acted as they had<i'm guessing fear of the Soviets> and what they would've done had things turned out differently in The War. I do know after their Civil War the OE was overthrown and a lot of that expansionist attitude was too I read a book on it. So I don't think they'd of ran offensives into Iraq, Egypt, Russia nor could they or would Germany/Italy let this happen.

One thing is true, these were weaker nations, with lower technology, equipment, supply, cash, etc.. the a Major like UK/USA/USSR/Germany and wouldn't have the Uberness or the power in combat that the others had...Same for Italy really, so making Minors phazed back a bit would be wise<in their combatant abilities> Now the Politics, it is always the same<they're always educated 1st rate>

PS. Swiss being hit by Italy? oddness total oddness, I can hardly believe it..

PSS. There should be a X Factor for Italy as Il Duce was a poor leader who royally slowed down Germany's Progress towards Barb.. Had ole Adolf hit Russia when he wanted I'm certian things in WW2 could've gone different. So unknowningly the Old Italian Dictator may have influenced the outcome of WW2 for the Allies<greece delayed Barb a bit I know>

[jon_j_rambo]

Why would the people/culture of Turkey get involved in WW-2? They didn't & wouldn't. You think they'd fight for Hitler? You think they'd fight for Stalin? Why would they? Turkey would stay neutral until threatened, or join the win side after tide was turned.

Come on already,

Legend

[Edwin P.]

Why would they?

Historically they did not for several reasons:

1. The president and his supporters did not want to take a risk of losing more territory, like they did in WWI.

2. The Western Allies and Axis were both offering Turkey financial aide to remain join their side. They effectively played off one side against the other to maximize the financial aid that Turkey received.

3. They did not feel threatened by Russia, which has been their historical enemy.

Why would they join the Axis?

1. A number of senior officers and politicians wanted to join the Axis and reclaim the lands of the Ottoman empire lost to the Allies after WWI.

2. If Russia threatened to encircle them by attacking Iraq.

3. If the Axis offered them financial aid and the allies ignored them.

4. If they thought the Axis was going to win.

[Liam]

agreed with les and jon

now we will have diplo chits in this new version so we can better influence certian nations though I'll probably guess influencing Turkey and gaining their allegiance<even if very very expensive which it should be> will cost Russian Readiness so what would be the point for the Axis. The Mountains in Turkey shouldn't be so easy to supply. they should be cut down so the rich southern Caucasus can't be taken without a decent chance for Russians to fight back.

Greece seems in my opinion more likely to resist Axis pressure along with Yugoslavia. Bulgaria and the regions of Romania-Hungary being more portions of AustroHungarian Empire. Bulgaria being more interested in her Med Sea connection lost after WW1 or the Balkan Wars..Serbia the Major portion of Yugo would be resistant to the aggressors from WW1 that inforced their will upon them before

OE nonexistant and dead after the coup there after WW1. However hateful to the West due to their attempt at seizing portions of their country after the war. Wasn't a huge portion of Anatolia occuppied by France until kicked out? I forget, 15 years after I read on Turkish Pre-WW2 History

[Edwin P.]

1. I agree that if Turkey joins the Axis Russian readiness should increase.

2. I agree that it should be hard for the Axis to convince Turkey to join them, especially if the Allies are working to convince them to join their side.

2. Moving through the mountains of the Causcaus range is very expensive and slow moving now.

3. Agreed that the cooler heads of the Turkish government wanted to remain neutral, but game is a what if, and what if the hot-heads had prevailed?

How do I see it?

a. In most games Turkey will remain neutral

b. If the Axis can take Egypt then Turkey will become more pro Axis as they will be surrounded by Axis controlled territory.

c. If Allies liberate France and Low Countries then Turkey will become more pro-Allied

d. If Russia conquers Iraq then Turkey will become more pro-Axis as they have been natural rivals for centuries.

e. If Axis conquers London then Turkey more likely to join Axis, to be on the winning side.

f. If Axis is the only country attempting to influence Turkey then Turkey could join the Axis.

[SeaMonkey]

Turkey is indeed a perfect scenario for the use of SC2 diplomatic chips...as was the case in WW2. Turkey was severely challenged by both sides, signing a Treaty of Friendship with its historical rival, Russia, in 1935. Later, in May 1939 Turkey entered into a joint declaration with the UK to aid one another in the event of a Mediterranean war, both being leary of Italy's Balkan designs. France also courted Turkey's friendship with a similar resolution and transfered the disputed province of Alexandretta from Syria to Turkey sovereignty.

Imagine Turkey's horror when the Nazi-Soviet Pact was signed...ouch! Followed by a period a grave danger when the Axis entered into the Balkans after France's collapse and the ensuing impotence of the UK.

Finally the diplomatic shuffle ended when, with the UK's blessing, Turkey signed the Treaty of Territorial Integrity and Friendship with Germany in June of 1941 just before the beginning of Barbarossa.

Now imagine if SC2 gives us the ability to duplicate this kind of diplomatic rambling, we will truly have the "Strategic Game of Games" simulating WW2 in Europe.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

How do I see it?

a. In most games Turkey will remain neutral

b. If the Axis can take Egypt then Turkey will become more pro Axis as they will be surrounded by Axis controlled territory.

c. If Allies liberate France and Low Countries then Turkey will become more pro-Allied

d. If Russia conquers Iraq then Turkey will become more pro-Axis as they have been natural rivals for centuries.

e. If Axis conquers London then Turkey more likely to join Axis, to be on the winning side.

f. If Axis is the only country attempting to influence Turkey then Turkey could join the Axis.

I agree with the above.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam,

It may well seem strange now, but throughout the Second World War Switzerland was definitely in fear of an Italian invasion! It's main defense against it involved collapsing tunnels and destroying bridges, all of them in the mountains and all of them almost irreplacable. So, regardless of Italy's results in other theaters, an Italian invasion of Switzerland would have led to the ruination of the country.

Aside from which, the Italian Alpine units were highly regarded and considered elite even among the Germans. Naturally there's little doubt that Mussolini would have been talented enough to screw up even their efforts!

[John C]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Suggestions for AI & Game Improvements

a. If Turkey takes Beruit prior to French Surrender Turkey should annex Syria and this territory should not become a part of Vichy France.

On a broader note, should any conquered territory (except southern france itself) become part of Vichy? I would think not as no power would wish to go to the effort of capturing a colony and then just give it up.

b. If Turkey takes Syria the Axis AI should select from 5 Strategic Possiblities for future Action:.

Again, on a broader note - any active minor should always consider the alternative of becoming aggressive towards a neighbor or sitting back on defense. Being aligned with the axis should provide a sizable bump towards aggression while alignment with the allies should significantly temper the likelihood of aggression. I don't know that you have to make a huge exception for Turkey here and it is nearly impossible to envision every conceivable combination of potential combatants. But all active minors would benefit from the same general logic and therefore it is worth considering as a general AI enhancement.

c. Although the Turkish AI did advance on Cairo and laid seige to it with the assistance of a Bomber in Turkey, the Italians never advanced from the West to cut off Cairo from reinforcements. So every time the Corps holding Cairo was reduced by attack the human player merely reinforced it during his turn.

Again, this isn't a Turkish issue but an overall AI issue that deserves consideration.

d. If Turkey joins the Axis after the Frence Surrender the the Axis AI should consider mounting a compaign to conquer or liberate Iraq as this will give it added production and prevent its use for Lend Lease shipments to Russia.

See a. above.

e. The Italian Navy should consider venturing into the Black Sea (if Turkey is Axis Allied) to attack the sole Russian Navy unit and perhaps send a lone corps or two via transports to invade the Russian rear and seize its oil resources.

If Turkey is Axis, one might wonder why it would be necessary to risk Italian ships to combat a Russian fleet that is totally cut off. And German troops should be able to advance through Turkey with the need for an Italian landing. Going after the Russian Oil makes sense, but KISS.

That's just my two cents on it all anyway.

[Edwin P.]

If Turkey is Axis, one might wonder why it would be necessary to risk Italian ships to combat a Russian fleet that is totally cut off. And German troops should be able to advance through Turkey with the need for an Italian landing. Going after the Russian Oil makes sense, but KISS.

1. Sinking the Russian fleet is an easy kill and aids the German advance. Futhermore, Italian units in the Black Sea can bombard any Russian units stationed along the coast.

2. I have played a few games against humans players where Turkey has joined the Axis. In those games I found that sending corps to conduct/threaten amphibious invasions of Southern Russia was more effective than trying to cross the Caucaus Mountains. Doing both forces the Russia player to commit more forces to this region.