A test game

[Henri]

Convinced that the 1941 Barbarossa scenario is impossible to win for the Germans, I decided to bite the bullet. I made a half-dozen German units 5-start elite units, added the Manstein HQ for the Germans, and added 3 or 4 German units to the production chain, plus a couple of subs. Here is what happened.

The Germans took Leningrad just before Winter 1942, and Moscow and Stalingrad fell in 1942, he Soviet HQ was now in Sverdlosk. Massive German support allowed the Germans to finally break through Al Alamein in 1942, and Alexandria and the rest of the Middle East fell n 1943, with Tunisia and algeria remaining untouched. The Germans were hampered by having to divert units to fight partisans near Leningrad and Minsk (more on this later).

In the meantime, a fierce battle took place in the Atlantic, where both sides took horrendous losses. The long time for Germans subs and ships to get repairs in port (2 turns to get there, one turn to repair sometimes one turn to upgrade then two turns to get back to convoy lanes) forced the Germans to invest more heavily than it was worth in the Atlantic war, whereas the British can get a new ship in the battle in one move, or a repaired one in 3 moves.

On the move that the Russians surrendered in July 1943, the Americans hit Africa with a massive invasion and the British invaded France and Belgium with 12 units! Had the Russians not surrendered yet, the Germans would have been hard put to face the invasion on the European mainland, but with Russia knocked out, a massive transfer of units back to the West spelled doom for the invaders. When the Germans failed to defend the Caucasus, the Russians put partisans in all 3 Caucasus cities (!!), and the Germans had to divert a half-dozen units there to take them out.

In Africa the Italians got control of the Med thanks to massive investment in the Navy, and a combined force of German and Italian units managed to stop the Americans in North Africa and slowly push them back.

There is NO way that The Germans could approach this kind of victory with the forces available in the scenario. If the Germans garrisoned every conquered city, they would have no units left to fight. Partisans appear almost every move in Yugoslavia, the Minsk and Leningrad areas, and in the Caucasus, and any ungarrisoned city there risks seeing a Russian unit appear in it, requiring the diversion of 3 or more German units to take them out.

The ability of theBritish to mount a 12-unit invasion of Europe in 1943 is surprising given the German suppression of Lend-Lease, and I wonder whether the 10-20 MPP penalty for sub conrol of the sea lanes is large enough - without lend-lease, the British could not have mounted even a puny army to face the Germans, much less a major invasion of Europe.

The 300 MPP cost of Manstein and other HQs ensure that these units will never be used in the scenario. The Germans can't afford a whole years worth of MPPs for a single HQ. The same goes for elites: a 5-star elite will require a unit to sit still for 5 turns, which the Germans can't afford.

In practice even with the ridiculously beefed up scenario that I played, the Germans can do almost nothing from November to April, when air power is grounded every turn, movement is almost nil and Russians are beefing up with a number of MPPs almost equal to that of the Germans. The war is far from over with the fall of Moscow, when the Russians simply move the Capital to Stalingrad.; the Russians shold suffer a massive drop in readiness and morale if Moscow falls. In the unlikely case where Moscow would fall in the original scenario (the Germans are unlikely to make it anywhere near Rostov as discussed in another thread), they will simply have longer lines and more battered units to restore with insufficient points.

In sum the main problem with the Germans is the inability to do more than one operation per move with a unit, with the result that over half of their units are inactive during any move. For a ground unit that has taken losses, one move is required to take replacements, one move per elite replacement, then another move to move back to the front line. This ensures that the front line moves like molasses, and the Blitzkrieng becomes a Molasseskrieg...

What my game suggests is that there may be a balance between the huge advantage that I gave the Germans and the assured victory that the scenario gives the Russians, where the Germans have at least the historical chance to win (Manstein claimed that the Germans could have won if they had not pulled out of the battle of Kursk early and if they had not split their Southern army to go after the Caucasus - doubtful perhaps, but it was a close thing...).How much that balance should be changed is far from obvious.

Despite the huge German advantage, this game became tense when the simultaneous invasion of Africa and Europe by the Allies coincided with the Russian surrender. The German units in the West at that time were no match for the invaders, and only a massive transfer of Germans from the Eastern Front saved the Germans.

Henri

[n0kn0k]

There is NO way that The Germans could approach this kind of victory with the forces available in the scenario. If the Germans garrisoned every conquered city, they would have no units left to fight.

Correction. There is no way you could win

But I'm sure others can

There's an easy way to cover all the partisan spots.

Just look up the tiles you need to cover in the editor.

There were people in the past who won the D-day scenario's etc also, which look even worse for the Germans

Happy to see you got a nice challenge from the AI though.

[Minty]

and complaining that germany can't win from 41 is like saying they can't win if you start in March 45. Too many bad decisions by that time. although you do benefit from massive underinvestment in the USSR if you start in 41.

Weiss 39 is well balanced, even 40, but any later and yes it's tough for International Facists R Us to win.

[Timskorn]

Yes, and try not to think of "winning" those kinds of scenarios as "domination", but rather how much better can you do than the Axis did historically. Some of my most entertaining games was recognizing the point at which I've failed in "winning by domination", then switching my game style to survival.

[asgard]

I have won with major victory the 41 scenerio. 41 is the easiest for the axis. I also won the 42. Never tried 43, 44, or 40.

Weiss 39 is well balanced, even 40, but any later and yes it's tough for International Facists R Us to win.

?? Have you tried the axis at expert? You get absolutely nothing from plunders. 220 mpp from france. What the hell is that? Russia has too many units by 41 and you have less than the germans have in 41 scenerio. Fall weiss is unbalanced at expert, because you simply dont get anough mpps while the allies mpps would be bigger than usual(expert level). Forget about north africa. Youlle have to concentrate all your HQs, dive bombers and tanks in the east to gain an initetive before the allies become active in the west. I have easier time in 41, besides wining in the east I also can kick the brits out of egypt and middle east.

[Henri]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is NO way that The Germans could approach this kind of victory with the forces available in the scenario. If the Germans garrisoned every conquered city, they would have no units left to fight.

Correction. There is no way you could win

But I'm sure others can

</font>

[John DiFool the 2nd]

In 1939 FW I think Germany needs a significant investment in IT and PT to stay in the war for the long run. I started a topic about that here but only got one response...

[imported_Rannug]

I'm far from the best SC playaer around but when I read about how hard this scenario was I took it for a spin against the AI. Moskwa fell 1942, Russia surrenderd sept 1944 and The US surrenderd sunmmer 1946 and London fell the same turn. This was on zero experience and beginner difficulty.

If it was against a human player it is probably hard to win as Axis but against the AI it will be a real challange first at experience +1 and almost impossible at +2.

The AI is predictable and as a human you will sooner or later always beat it if you give it a few spins.

[asgard]

Originally posted by Henri:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by n0kn0k:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is NO way that The Germans could approach this kind of victory with the forces available in the scenario. If the Germans garrisoned every conquered city, they would have no units left to fight.

Correction. There is no way you could win

But I'm sure others can

</font>

[Hubert Cater]

Henri,

I'm also glad to see that you got a nice challenge from the AI and all I can suggest is to keep at it as I am sure once the game mechanics become more familiar, i.e. partisan positions, combined arm assaults etc., and with the right strategies you will soon be able to find victory as the Germans in the '41 campaign.

For testing purposes I also decided to take the '41 campaign for a quick run through (as it has been quite some time since I have played SC2) and seemed to come up with similar results as Rannug for the first year or so of game play. For example, I managed to capture Leningrad and Alexandria by late '41 with Cairo falling in early '42 and Moscow soon to fall by probably summer '42 as well.

There are some good tips here and with the new patch now available I think you will like some of the changes once capitals have been captured and moved, i.e. the new morale loss calculations and so on... good luck!

Hubert

[Henri]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

Henri,

I'm also glad to see that you got a nice challenge from the AI and all I can suggest is to keep at it as I am sure once the game mechanics become more familiar, i.e. partisan positions, combined arm assaults etc., and with the right strategies you will soon be able to find victory as the Germans in the '41 campaign.

For testing purposes I also decided to take the '41 campaign for a quick run through (as it has been quite some time since I have played SC2) and seemed to come up with similar results as Rannug for the first year or so of game play. For example, I managed to capture Leningrad and Alexandria by late '41 with Cairo falling in early '42 and Moscow soon to fall by probably summer '42 as well.

There are some good tips here and with the new patch now available I think you will like some of the changes once capitals have been captured and moved, i.e. the new morale loss calculations and so on... good luck!

Hubert

LOL...well, it seems that I need to sharpen up my play since two players one of whom is the programmer managed to take Moscow in this scenario. Back to the drawing board...

Henri