First Impressions

[Shaka of Carthage]

Now that the initial hysteria has died down I'd like to offer some viewpoints regarding SC2.

Its hard to draw definitive conclusions, since we are looking at development screenshots, and with a production release so many months away, none of what we see could be what is released.

One thing is obvious. The basic SC engine hasn't changed. While there are some radically different subsystems being discussed (ie tiles vs hexes, etc), the basic engine of SC remains. Which means the fundamental problems with SC are still there.

Good news is that there are only a few problems that need to be addressed, since the basic SC engine is a sound design. I'll address my concerns about those problem areas in other topics.

One thing that I think people are missing in the debate about tiles vs hexes, is the marketing aspect. For all the fanaticism the people on this forum show, there are not enough of us to guarantee SC2 becomes a financial success. So I wonder how much the marketing requirements are driving the isometric view and tiles of SC2, in an effort to obtain more buyers? I think the marketing model of SC2, because of the way its sold, is closer to a boardgame than a traditional computer wargame. I don't remember exactly what the projected sales figures were, but from what I remember, SC2 would have to sell something like 10,000 or 15,000 copies to be considered a success. If tiles and 2D view will obtain those numbers, do it. Hexes and top down views haven't.

Besides... I would think that all of us would appreciate the esthetics of snow covered vehicles and white uniforms in winter, khaki uniforms in the desert or even mud drenched uniforms. Based on what I've seen of some of the video games the younger generation like, show some blood or bodies dying, and you'll have a mega-hit.

Its also obvious that Mr H has listened to his customer base and has tried to incorporate as many suggestions as he could from what people have discussed. Not to mention having this forum for a discussion of new ideas as well. I commend you for that approach.

I, like many others, also agree that SC2 should be offerred in the $30 to $40 range. I wasn't around when SC was in its pre-production phase, but make sure you use the P500 concept of pre-production orders, so you are guaranteed a certain number of dollars before you even start production.

In conclusion, you've got my vote (and $) for moving in the right direction. Like most of us here, I can't wait to get my hands on SC2.

[Curry]

Shaka,

You have been around here a long time and your view is sure appreicated. Good words.

[Some_God]

The hype didnt die down... WLALSKLWAJDKDAKJD WOOOHOOO SCII IS COMING OUT... I WILL SACRIFICE 20 GOATS FOR YOU HUBERT, YEAHHH!!!! :eek:

[Edwin P.]

I second your vote and can't wait for SC2.

As for tiles vs hexes, I can't answer that until I play the demo but I don't think that it will make a serious difference, it might even make the game better. Yes, better.

But so far from everything I see it promises to offer players a much more satisfying game with lots more decisions and trade-offs to make, an improved FOW, a better AI, an improved look and several ways to win within the same keeping the simple easy to learn system that made SC so good.

And that's not including the features offered by the vastly improved editor.

HC's and the playtesters are doing a good job.

[ April 20, 2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[pzgndr]

As for tiles vs hexes, I can't answer that until I play the demo but I don't think that it will make a serious difference, it might even make the game better. Yes, better.

My thoughts exactly. With the map grid turned off and your units in fighting positions moving about in the heat of battle, tiles should not make a difference and may actually improve some things. We'll see. As for it being a marketing decision, I suspect there are code effeciencies Hubert is shooting for rather than trying to appeal to some new audience. SC1 blazed a new trail with Eiffel programming and fuzzy logic AI routines and some other innovations, so this is probably something else to set SC2 apart from "the rest."

As for the rest, we're seeing quite a spread of WWII titles to choose from. SC1 and HOI lead the pack. Besides SC2, we'll also see Grigsby's WAW released by Matrix later this year. And sometime in the future we'll see ADG's WiF as a Matrix computer game. The scales and scopes are all different, some with hexes some with tiles and some with provinces/regions, some real-time and some turn-based, etc. If every game was made essentially the same as all other games, what would that prove? Let's enjoy the variety.

[RobRas]

Shaka wrote: "Besides... I would think that all of us would appreciate the esthetics of snow covered vehicles and white uniforms in winter, khaki uniforms in the desert or even mud drenched uniforms". Nope, not me. I just want to play a game - not look at uniforms. Got books for that.

[Elmo]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

You mean all those troops facing southeast regardless of the actual location of the enemy or the front line?! I wouldn't call that "in fighting positions".

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Elmo:

You mean all those troops facing southeast regardless of the actual location of the enemy or the front line?! I wouldn't call that "in fighting positions". [/QB]

Elmo, not to worry, the current batch of screenshots are still a work in progress, so expect some changes before the final product. Enemy units now face off against each other... well at least on my computer they do

[Elmo]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmo:

You mean all those troops facing southeast regardless of the actual location of the enemy or the front line?! I wouldn't call that "in fighting positions".

Elmo, not to worry, the current batch of screenshots are still a work in progress, so expect some changes before the final product. Enemy units now face off against each other... well at least on my computer they do [/QB]</font>

[Edwin P.]

the current batch of screenshots are still a work in progress, so expect some changes before the final product.

So, I have a chance, a very small chance, to see iceburgs in the north atlantic during the winter months, the pyramids next to Cairo, the Partheon as part of Athens and King Kong climbing the Empire State Building in New York.

[AstroCat]

Originally posted by RobRas:

Shaka wrote: "Besides... I would think that all of us would appreciate the esthetics of snow covered vehicles and white uniforms in winter, khaki uniforms in the desert or even mud drenched uniforms". Nope, not me. I just want to play a game - not look at uniforms. Got books for that.

It sounds like you just want to play a game on a grid with only numbers...boring! I have hex paper and a calculator for that.

I love great gameplay but also love good graphics and sound. I can not understand what the attraction for some wargamers to crappy audio and visual experiences is? It is like somehow the worse the a/v experience is the more "hardcore" they feel? Please, give it up already...take it all if you can. Why not amazing 3d graphics with all the bells and whistles, fully realized audio production, AND great gameplay.

For me, all the extras add so much to the overall feel and experience of the game. Cool little unit graphics with weather dependent uniforms is totally fun, give me more! Just don't sacrifice or dumb down the gameplay.

Jordan "AstroCat"

[Sombra]

Well still excited about SC2. I am addicted to Sc. Its funny because one the first look SC is quite ugly and the AI is not quite up to the task.

But Multiplayer TCP/IP is a blast

The gameplay is great and engrossing. My only grips with SC are:

Game balance:

- MP advantage is always on the Axis side which is directly connectd to the siberian transfer

- Siberian Transfer only when the Axis is prepared,(triggered by the Axis) no bonus if you are defending the motherland at the front lines because you will never get the necessary reinforcements to break the Axis

- To easy to conquer and CONTROL minor nations

- Jets are to powerful

- Subs are fun but can be to easily spotted

- FOW can be "cleared" to easily. With a few planes you have a 100% reliable view of the whole front

- Many units are quite useless right now :

Rockets, Bombers etc.

- Invasions by sea are to easy.

I hope and it sems all these points will be adressed though I am looking forward to even greater game because SC is already a great game.

Hoping for an even better multiplayer and if some of the suggestions from Rambo could be included like spectator mode etc. I would be very happy indeed.