USA shipping sunk while NOT at war, and USA can do nothing? What's going on?

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Blashy:

You should have it that you have to be ON the lanes.

Because the Canada UK lane is pretty close and a player could activate US without touching the lanes.

Convoys from Canada weren't jsut Canadian and UK ships - all shipping to the UK was in them - whehter panamanian, American or Norwegian!

So a hit on a canadian convoy might be a bit less likely to sink a US ship, but it certainly has hte possibility.

[Blashy]

Yeah but the problem is sub raiding is still too weak and now if you have the chance of increasing US readiness then players will just stop raiding the Canadian lanes as well.

[rclawson007]

Well, I could reduce the % chance per turn, from 75% to 50% or even 20%. So it balances out to a degree. The question is the right degree. Right now, two subs stationed in US/Canada corridor continuously for a year would increase US activation by 18 +/- 8 percent. Too high or too low. Also, I think the sub kill rate is way too high if one is after an attrition war...which I am. But that is another mod.

[jon_j_rambo]

Well, a small adjustment makes sense.

[markpoll]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

So, if wikipedia is correct, the US attacked the Germans first ? Without the Germans even firing a shot at them ?

Pre-emptive strike for the win !

Yes. The Germans in their DOW on the US on 11/12/41 (an interesting read) cited the US decision to attack German warships on sight despite strict German compliance with international law!!! Clearly though, it was the price for Japanese entry into the war. An interesting point though, the US did not declare war, except after the Germans and Japanese had, despite all the provocations.

[rclawson007]

My first pass through this was just too large in scope. After trying a few ideas, I've settled (thus far) on the following. One, defining a new US convoy route so it no longer overlaps Canadas. Two, a simple check if at least one german naval unit is on the convoy route. If so, there is a 50% chance pre Pearl Harbor and 100% chance post Pearl Harbor for a 1-3% activation increase. This required only two scripts...which makes me . Also, there is a signifcant activation hit for being within 2 tiles of US coast post Pearl Harbor. But the convoy route is not along the coast, so barring an invasion there is no need for the Axis to be there.

[Lars]

I see no reason for an increase in US readiness due to raiding on the Lend-Lease convoy route, historical or otherwise, and I hope Hubert leaves it alone.

[xwormwood]

Instead of a readiness gains the allied player should be given the opportunity to draw the convoy lines / route after his own likings.

Maybe every turn 5 or 10 tiles to add or to remove, to push up, down, left or right.

this would give the axis players something to think and search about, a nut to crack.

Could be spiced with a ASW / Sub-tech. if the axis leads in the research race the allied player could loose some tiles to change and vice versa.

Same to the amount of mmps lost by subs. if asw rises, the losses from subs should fall, even though there is no hunting group around. after all we are talking about convoys, not single steamers without a convoy system to protect the precious tonnage. better sub-tech on the other hand should only protect better against beeing spotted and improvements in diving / escaping.

[Major Spinello]

I may be wrong, but can it be that the game also makes Italian subs damage any UK convoys through the med if positioned on the convoy-lane?

[Major Spinello]

... I meant while Italy is not at war (of course).

[rclawson007]

Lars...The US entered WWI based on a U-boat sinking a passanger liner carrying tourists (and supplies of course) to England. There was US public concern over the German Attacks, and following the attack on Pearl Harbor there is little question that Roosevelt was going to get the US into the War. I like that the game allows for later US entry, based on the Axis players choices. I have gotten US entry as late as Dec. 43. But, if you look at the dozens of scripted political events in this game, there are significant axis activation events for US ships getting near the coasts of Spain and Russia...as opposed to actually attacking their ships. Do you really believe their was no public response to these attacks - or any other attacks throughout history? If the German player wants to avoid provoking the US then he can choose to avoid US shipping and only go after other convoy routes.

[Lars]

The Axis activation events were put in deliberately to prevent gamey scouting by a neutral US player. No historical reason.

The US activation goes up enough, and fast enough, as it is. I see no reason to give the Allied player a "protected" convoy route. If you want to have the US activation rise for German surface ships parked off the harbor, I'm fine with that, as it will happen very rarely if the Allied player has half a brain. Or the Axis player for that matter.

As for ships off the shore, don't see you screaming about the Chinese or Russian subs currently out there. Fact is, over the horizon, and in international waters, and most people just don't give a damn.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by rclawson007:

Lars...The US entered WWI based on a U-boat sinking a passanger liner carrying tourists (and supplies of course) to England.

As you say - that was WW1, and it was not the 1st attack.

The US had already effectively ben in a shooting war with U-boats for 6 months before Pearl Harbour, and there simply was no outcry about getting into the war because of attacks on convoys - there was a sort of acceptancethat that was the way it was if you wanted to sail to England!

[Rolend]

Yes and besides many Americans believed that was how we were duped into being drug into WWI, they were not going to fall for that 'ploy' again in WWII. Americans knew that FDR was pushing neutrality with Germany by things like lend lease and US destroyer escorts actually attacking German U-boats. The sinking of US merchant ships or destroyer escorts was NOT going to convince a VERY isolationist nation to go to war in Europe. In fact even after Pearl Harbor there was a VERY strong feeling that "Europe has their war and we have ours." Yea FDR would of got us into the war in Europe one way or another but what did the trick so early was that genius Hitler when he declared war on the US.

[rleete]

Originally posted by Lars:

The US activation goes up enough, and fast enough, as it is.

Agreed. The US entry (and especially the "Pearl Harbor attacked" thing) are far too certain. Granted, the UK and USSR are probably in need of the help to balance things, but I always find it comes sooner than I want when playing the Axis. Of course, as the Allies, it never comes soon enough!

[Scook]

Barring history (aka real world), maybe a one time hit for doing it to the US convoys, say in the 5%-10% range. Most games I have been playing vs real people have US entering June-August 1942. The sub hit should move the entry up to spring time. After the one time shock value occurs, the press buries the stories on page 11, and the Axis attack the convoys.

Currently in game, remember you can adjust the sliders to how much a convoy will send. Drop the US down to 0, see if that Canadian route gets hit, and your cruisers should have a pretty small zone to patrol to find the pesky sub.