Research catagories....What we know so far.

[Retributar]

I completely disagree with you Shaka Of Carthage you are completely wrong!. ... as i said in my previous posting...IF YOU DONT WANT IT ... TURN IT OFF!!!!!!!.

You only want in the game what is convient for you!.

[pzgndr]

Nothing new to report on the intelligence tech. I mentioned a few possible ideas in previous posts, but at this point they are still ideas that we have bounced around. Hubert needs to decide what to do and how to implement whatever he settles on.

An atomic bomb tech was discussed at some length in the beta forum. The short answer is pretty much summed up by Shaka.

[hellraiser]

ref mechanization: corps and armies able to move more hexes ... but what about poor hqs? will they crawl at the same speed as in SC1?

j/k

now seriously; i dunno if it is such a good ideea to implement mechanization as a tech which will force players to buy mech troops; maybe it would be better to make it a buying option with very high cost associated - i mean there will be situations when you desperately need to close gaps with cheap stuff and you won't be able to buy it - u gotta spend mpps on trucks, gas, etc as well

regular / motorised infantry units buy option - let me decide which type i should buy depending whether i am on defence or offence.

cheers

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage:

Let me tell you why I think having an Atomic Bomb option is a bad thing.

The only nation that has the resources to obtain a Atomic Bomb is the US. As I have mentioned before, Germanies research was for energy purposes, not weapons. So other than the US, no one else should have the option. Of course, all of you who believe Germany was able to build long range jet bombers and flying saucers will disagree with me.

To be able to have a realistic and playable Atomic weapon is not an easy thing to design. Its alot of work to do it right, otherwise, you end up with a nation that doesn't have to pursue winning the war, it can just wait until it gets the bomb.

If Mr H does want to add Atomic weapons, it should be something that happens in a future release, not the first one. There are more important things that need to be worked on to give us an enjoyable game.

What about theUK,Germany and the USSR?

The UK worked together with the US to develop A-bombs, besides the game is for 'what if'-scenario's as well, isn't it?

So,what if germany had invested more in atomic research(weapons and energy)?

What if the Russians would have invested in nucleair technology?

I also agree this should be EXTREMELY difficult to do.

Not just a high cost prive but some conditions as well :

-enough available recources(mines,cities,etc...)

-it has to be a major of course.

- you have to have certain techs developped to an appropriate level before you can research nucleair technology.

-a maximum of 2 chits that can be invested in it.

-a maximum mumber of bombs that can be built.(to lower the chance of a 1945 nucleair winter because everyone's nuking each other.)

p.s.: Germany did have long range jet bombers at the end of the war, didn't they? I though this was proven?

I agree about the UFO's though, seems highly unlikely.

[Edwin P.]

If Mr H does want to add Atomic weapons, it should be something that happens in a future release, not the first one. There are more important things that need to be worked on to give us an enjoyable game.

I strongly agree.

An Atomic Bomb Tech is something that is "a nice to have" feature, but it is not "a should have" or a "must have feature".

To be able to have a realistic and playable Atomic weapon is not an easy thing to design. Its alot of work to do it right, otherwise, you end up with a nation that doesn't have to pursue winning the war, it can just wait until it gets the bomb.

I disagree, as I think that the key to adding an atom bomb tech is to 1) make it expensive to achieve that those pursuing it have a weakened army, 2) make it risky to research (by limiting it to only 1 tech chit) and 3) having the effects be realistic.

Realistic? The blast radius of the bombs dropped during WWII was quite small, most of the damage was from the ensuing fire. This means that it should only affect one hex. It may also have political effects - such a chance to cause Italy (but not Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia to surrender)

There were only three nations in WWII economically capable of developing an Atomic Bomb - The US, Germany and Japan. Of those only the US allocated enough resources to this project to achieve success.

Rossevelt45: I also agree this should be EXTREMELY difficult to do.

Not just a high cost prive but some conditions as well :

-enough available recources(mines,cities,etc...)

I agree, in fact I would make it a requirement that the nation pursing this control either the Mine Resource Tile in Norway or a Mine Resource Tile in the USA to simulate the requirement for heavy water. This would give the allies a realistic way to stop the German research if they detected that Germany was pursuing this option.

[ September 22, 2004, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Retributar]

Pro's and Con's i see...but as far as im concerned...the A-Bomb was REAL in WW2 and it should not be excluded out of the game,...this 'IS-NO-UFO'!.

If a player does not want it in their game...and i myself may not want it either...then i-can-turn-it-off!...thereby eliminating it out of my game!.

To be a true as possible simulation...anything that happend, or was in WW2 as far as possible should not be eliminated from the game unless...it renders the game unviable.

Edwin P. has explained very well...as to how it doesn't necessarily need to be a game-breaker!. Thanks!.. Edwin P. !...for your logical answer.

[Roosevelt45(the 2nd)]

An Atomic Bomb Tech is something that is "a nice to have" feature, but it is not "a should have" or a "must have feature".

Absolutely right!

If the A-bomb isn't in the game it won't be a minus point for me.

[With Clusters]

When talking about the resources necessary for a worthwhile Bomb program, what are we asking?

Historically, the US (albiet w/ some UK help) was able to spend massive resources on the Manhatten Project, yet still field vast conventional forces (while sending huge amounts of supplies to allied forces).

If the Bomb is an option, how would that be reflected? What if a US player a-historically decided not to engage in the undertaking? Would he then be able to create even more conventional forces (say, an extra 10 armies and/or armor units, or an extra 5 carrier groups, for example)?

Of all the Major Powers, only the US seems to have had the wherewithall to engage in something as costly as the Bomb project, while simultaniously deploying vast conventional armaments. Understanding how "restricted" the US was in SC1, and also the fact that in reality, the US engaged in the Bomb project while fighting a war on two massive theaters (only one of which will be represented in "official" SC2), there is a lot to consider in order to equitably and "realistically" include the Bomb in the game, AFAIC.

IMO, I wouldn't mind seeing it included, but only if all the ramifications were fully considered and accounted for.

[Edwin P.]

Nothing new to report on the intelligence tech. I mentioned a few possible ideas in previous posts, but at this point they are still ideas that we have bounced around. Hubert needs to decide what to do and how to implement whatever he settles on.

As I recall one of the ideas was that intelligence tech allows you to see if a city hex (TILE) was occupied, and at higher levels if there were units in the surrounding hexes (TILES).

What were the other ideas?

[pzgndr]

Gents, let's not beat a dead horse. Atomic bomb technology is not on Hubert's list for SC2 research areas.

With Clusters raises a good point, namely if the tech is optional and USA chooses to NOT pursue it then those considerable extra MPPs would be unbalancing in a European Theater game. And allowing anyone to do it if they can afford a chit and get real lucky, even Germany or UK, would be very unrealistic. It is a can of worms we really don't "need" for an otherwise excellent ETO game. Let's focus on conventional strategy, yes?

Recognizing the historical reality of what actually happened, players could consider an optional scripted event for random availability of atomic bombs after July 1945 if a game goes that long. A supply event could be used to reduce Axis unit readiness, representing the shattering of national morale and logistics networks, etc. Players could use the Editor to add something like this, including Axis atomic bombs, if they so desire.

[pzgndr]

What were the other ideas?

I thought I had posted something, but I just did a search and apparently not. One of the ideas was using the intel tech level to affect the research catch up bonus. Intel might also be used to influence diplomacy chances. If we adopt some system of spotting probabilities, intel could affect those. That sort of stuff.

It's got to be simple enough for a quantifiable intel tech level or level differential between countries to be used as a modifier for another quantifiable game parameter. That makes sense, yes? Now, what parameters we end up with and how they might affect each other remains to be seen. So things are still speculative at this point.

[Edwin P.]

Another idea, building on the above, is to allow a country tht reaches intel level 4, a rather high level, to select a country in which to activate partisans from a choice list, thus making partisans, besides those in Russia and Yugoslavia, more of a strategic choice and unknown variable as the Axis will not know where exactly or if they could occur.

For example:

IF I reach Intel Level 4 as the Allies I can activate Partisans for one of the following nations:

Norway or Sweden or Spain or Greece or Turkey

For the Axis this list would be:

Finland, Turkey, or Iraq

Also, Intel Tech could affect the chance for partisans occuring in your home country. An equal or higher enemy intel level would cancel out this bonus. Why, If Russian Intelligence is 4 and Axis 1 assume that Russian Partisan operations will be more effective due to superior Russian intelligence operatives.

Idea 3: Intelligence Tech increases the Readiness of Air Fleets intercepting Bombers attacking a city, port or resource hex. AKA the OSS has learned the plans for an impending bomber raid.

[ September 22, 2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[photonred]

Shaka of Carthage,

Sorry to disagree with you but Hitler would certanly have demanded a weapon once the research was advanced enough the problem was most of the research scientist were Jewish and fled Germany once it became clear they were a target. additonally there is discussion that the scientist that did work on the project delayed the research because they were afraid that Hitler WOULD demand a wepon.

[Edwin P.]

Intelligence Ideas Continued,

4. Intelligence Affects the Chance for Events

4% Per Tech Level Advantage per Turn that a randomly selected enemy naval ship in port is damaged by Sabotage

---- Highest UK/USA Intel Tech: 3, Italian Intel: 0 = 9% that an Italian Ship in Port suffers 1 point of damage, due to sabotage by UK Agents.

Popup: "Enemy agents sabotage ships in port of [London]"

2% Per Tech Level Advantage Per Turn that a randomly selected Resource hex is damaged by sabotage. (ie 1 in 50 turns with a Tech Level 1 advantage, 1 in 25 turns with Tech Level 2, 1 in 10 turns with Intel Tech Level 5 Advantage)

Popup: "Enemy Agents Sabotage Mines in [Norway]."

2% per tech level advantage that an enemy partisan unit or HQ unit is damaged (ie 1point of damage).

Popup: "Enemy agents destroy supply depot of [Russian] Partisans."

Popup: "Enemy agents sabotage supply depots attached to HQ unit [Rommel]."

What is a tech level advantage:

USA Intel Tech = 1, UK Tech Level = 2, Germany Tech Level = 2, Italian Tech Level = 0

UK and USA have no tech level advantage vs Germany and thus Germany is protected from Intelligence events.

Highest Allied Intel Tech is 2 and thus Allies have a +2 tech level advantage vs Italy and thus Italian controlled territories is subject to Allied Intelligence Events.

Note: UK and USA Intel Tech only Axis units outside of Russia, USSR Intel Tech affects only German units in Russian Territory.

5. Intel Tech give you a chance to spot an enemy unit.

2% Per Tech Level Advantage Per Enemy Unit to Spot the Unit.

Example: Germany with Intel Tech 2 vs UK with Intel Tech 0 has a 4% (ie sees 1 in 25 units on average) to spot each UK unit. Germany with Intel Tech 2 vs USSR with Intel Tech 2 has a 0% to spot each Russian Unit.

6. Intel Tech advantages gives a bonus to the chance for creation of Partisan Units

UK Intel Advantage over Germany of 1 gives a 2% bonus to chance for Yugoslavian Partisans. Russian Intel Advantage over Germany of 3 gives Russia a 6% bonus to chance for Russian partisans.

[ September 24, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]