[SURVEY] Do you really care about the A.I.?

[jon_j_rambo]

Alright, it seems the A.I. is getting alot of attention in the majority of the threads. Does anybody really care about the A.I.? Seriously, what does the A.I. really matter? Because, it's going to stink relative to real players. There's no way to write a program to account for all the crap in this type of game. It's not like chess with recursive logic that has an "absolute best" move. There's going to be enough issues resolving bugs & balancing game play for human players.

From my individual professional gaming prespective, I just don't care about the A.I. I can't smack talk it in a game. I don't want to play a program. I'd find it more interesting to program my own A.I. to battle your programmed A.I.

It would take Hubert alot of time to make "even an average A.I." in my Legendary opinion.

So, Hubert, get a better return on your time with cool features! For instance, spectator mode (like online poker clicking or something), timers, & keep your time open for bug patches on all the strategies that will unbalance the game.

Please post opinions here about the A.I.,

Legend

[Sombra]

Rambo most players simply never play online. Though their impression of the game will be mostly about the AI. If it is really bad many people will say it si a bad game and and will die premature. Well, only for this reason I care about the AI.

[Edwin P.]

I'd find it more interesting to program my own A.I. to battle your programmed A.I.

I agree, Rambo. Programming an AI to battle another AI would be most interesting.

I also agree with Sombra. Most players never play online. Look at how small the forums and leagues are relative to the number of people that purchased the game.

I like playing PBEM games (and if anyone wants a game email me) and the occasional TCP/IP game more than the AI, but play the AI more often as 1) its always ready to play and it 2) fits my schedule better.

[Ron]

Bully for you JJ, but guess what? You ARE the minority. Research shows and has shown that over 70% of gamers play solitaire against the AI. CM has been very successful with an even more 'rabid' set of fans than some of you guys, yet awhile ago Steve said PBEM may not make it in - other features were more important. Why? Because according to him that 'huge vocal minority' paled in comparsion to those that never played online. You can imagine the howls.

If SC2 has no AI, or doesn't have a decent AI, it will get panned in reviews and most won't buy it. It's as simple as that.

Ron

[J P Wagner]

The AI is a strong selling point in any game so it cannot be ignored. Remember that this is a game that is supposed to have broad appeal and I'm sure we all want Hubert to profit financially, so having a good AI will help in that regard. If this was a niche' PBEM/TCP game only, the sales would not benefit Hubert or BF....

[Lars]

Without an AI it's not really a computer game, now is it?

[JerseyJohn]

At one point I had 20 or so PBEM games going on at once. I tried direct connection but found I didn't care for it -- too much time committed to the game and also I don't care for all the chatting most people like to do. I especially didn't care for one guy who kept sending me messages, but only on my time, making comments about how my game was going amiss and then asking me to hurry up. I said he was a military genius and bid him goodnight. I've been playing solitaire ever since.

Unfortunately the SC1 is so terrible that I needed to custom make scenarios giving huge advantages to the AI or it isn't a game. Even then the strategies are always predictable so it isn't much fun.

I'm not interested in head-to-head competition and I'm not looking for an incredible challenge or to be champion or anything, all I want is a game I can play for half an hour, against the computer, anytime I feel like playing. At that point I want to save it and pick it up anytime I want to, or to be free to never resume it at all.

The computer player has to be able to play an interesting game, or it's no good for me.

If the AI is decent I'll buy SC2 in a few months.

If I read that it isn't, I'll wait a year, possibly more.

[pzgndr]

Why does this silly issue continue to pop up like an unwelcomed weed?

The plan is for SC2 to have an AI plus AI script editing for solo gaming, and both PBEM and TCP/IP capability for multiplayer gaming. Any PC game worth it's salt these days can and should provide all these capabilities to appeal to a broad market base AND satisfy most all potential customers - regardless of their preferred mode of play.

[Comrade Trapp]

I also support SC2 having a strong AI, regardless of how long it takes.

[hellraiser]

@JJR - dewd, Hubert & the gang r trying to make some money ... w/o a good AI, they ain't gonna sell squat...well maybe to 30-50 tcp/ip-ers and that's all ... can you imagine all those gaming magazines rating SC2 at 3.2 out of 10 cuz the AI can't even move a corps on the map?

I strongly support the ideea of a powerful AI because of a basic little thingy: good AI (plus some other kewl features) = solid and appealing game = lots of copies sold = nice profits for the BF/Fury = nice payroll = Hubert buys BMW 6 series (or whatever makes him happy) = Hubert is happy = SC sequels -> SC3 (4,5,...n) will continue to pop out every 2-3 years = i'm spending some of my free time playing quality games for some years from now on

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, let me add:

Is it even possible to make a good A.I.?

Can anybody name me a "war strategy game" that has a good A.I.? Meaning, one in which the A.I. actually has strategy, not just mega combat bonuses or more pieces.

Personally, I don't think it's 'practically possibly' to make a good A.I. for SC type games. It's like making a Tower of Babel, yeah it's large building, but you never reach the sky.

-Legend

[hellraiser]

@JJR - you are correct -> atm, few AIs can actually be of a real challenge to human mind. But ... you have to keep in mind that a game like SC is addressed to a variety of players - some of them like to play the game for 1-2 months, some for 1-3 years ... most of them will just finish the campaigns and dump the game after that; some of them can't be bothered with online performance other are online addicts - but financially speaking, BF/Fury is selling just 1 copy to a casual gamer as well as to a fanatic - profit is the same. Regardless of anything else, AI was/is/will be one of the strongest selling point of a PC game(especially for a strategy game where visuals tend to matter a lot less than in other genres) so it is a must for SC2 to have. The better the AI, the better reviews in gaming magazines thus more $$$ will pour into the developer/publisher's bank account ...

[ November 28, 2005, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@HR --- Of course I want Hubert & the Canadian crew to make some jack, I've got a crispy $50 just for SC-2. You don't need to preach to me about Capatilism, lets all get rich....or if we want to be equal, we could move to Cuba and all be poor.

I've never met an AI that was worth a dang (for a real game, not C-Trapp's Shutes & Ladders computer version). I know I'm in the minority, I am a minority.

Instead of wasting time on an A.I., why not have Hubert working on a U.S. Civil War game? World War I game? Some Roman Empire hex game?

Give me a break. When you guys say,"I want the best A.I.", blah-blah-blah......that's great....fix the landing bonus. Think before you type. How can you make a good A.I. before humans have even played the game? So, go ahead make your AI move a Polish corp back to Warsaw, there's no way the AI is worth the time & effort to please some news article. Smoke & Mirror features are overated.

@Sir Jersey --- Dude, we know you don't play compete & smack talk, except for chess 20 years ago in the park. From a business standpoint & programming logic, do you really feel it is possible to make a good AI?

[hellraiser]

'Instead of wasting time on an A.I., why not have Hubert working on a U.S. Civil War game? World War I game? Some Roman Empire hex game? '

errrp...because he has to sell SC2 first??? Do you expect ppl to buy just an editor and set up games vs grandma in hotseat?

Maybe in some years we will see a Terif-like AI kicking our butts all over the SC 8 map ???

[ November 28, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@HR --- Of course a good A.I. makes a game, I don't deny that. But we're not programming Chess, Scramble, or some other deterministic logic. Why waste time on an AI that's going to suck anyhow? Think, the original SC pre-patch was an absolute joke, not even worth playing at any level. I remember buying "Axis & Allies" computer version, I took over Russia in 3-turns, LOL. And they had lots of good articles praising their sorry ass game. I took the game back & got my jack back.

[jon_j_rambo]

And another thing! If you want some real good business advice? If everybody is sooooo concerned about Hubert making bank, why don't you think about the feature that needs attention! Security! I bet half the clowns who have played SC, didn't even paid for their version.

@C-Trapp --- Have you ever beaten the AI in SC?

After further thought, you guys are probably rigth, the average sap with a dollar bill in hand to buy a computer game, enjoys playing the game 5 times, then throwing it out. If you really want to get a good bang for your consumer buck, go see the Legendary new movie,"I Walk the Line", it's RIC (RIC - Rambo Instant Classic)

-Legend

[ November 28, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[hellraiser]

'I remember buying "Axis & Allies" computer version, I took over Russia in 3-turns, LOL. And they had lots of good articles praising their sorry ass game. I took the game back & got my jack back. ' - d00d, not every player out there is born with an IQ of 1457.34 like yours

Some of them can't beat a lousy ass AI not even in 5 years...but they still pay for their copy

[Desert Dave]

pzgndr:

The plan is for SC2 to have an AI plus AI script editing for solo gaming, and both PBEM and TCP/IP capability for multiplayer gaming. Any PC game worth it's salt these days can and should provide all these capabilities to appeal to a broad market base AND satisfy most all potential customers - regardless of their preferred mode of play.

Mr Bill is right on, and not to mention... there will be somewhere in the neighborhood of, oh, I'd guess,

Several HUNDREDS of ways & means

To "balance" ANY kind of game you guys

Wish to play.

Not to say that Hubert is NOT making, as of this moment and beyond,

A very good AI.

I would agree that the degree

Of complexity will make it a daunting task,

No doubt.

However, with great suggestions,

Now (... IE, from Edwin P. in particular)

AND with a previous SC-1 blue-print

To work from,

AND with the many myriad suggestions

That WILL soon ensue!

Once the game is released,

AND thus & so,

The very SAME great support AFTER market,

Well, how come all this consternation? :confused:

I have NO DOUBT whatsoever that everyone

WILL have the game they prefer,

Whether that be TCP/IP, or PBEM,

Or, AND including, thrilling

And challenging SOLO play.

You guys just don't REALLY know, as yet,

WHAT can be done

With a bit of imagination.

It truly boggles the mind.

Herein lies the problem... most are PRESUMING

An old, archaic and commonplace sort

Of PC game.

WITHOUT the kind of Editor that will be placed,

Squarely, in YOUR hands.

THAT is the difference you seem NOT

To be taking into account.

So.

What will it take for the "Average Joe"

With little or even NO experience

Using this Editor,

To make - create - alter - fine tune,

THE game that will very nearly perfectly

Satisfy him, and I guess, some of hers?

Hmmmm, maybe a couple weeks?

Probably... less. :cool:

[ November 28, 2005, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@Sir Jersey --- Dude, we know you don't play compete & smack talk, except for chess 20 years ago in the park. From a business standpoint & programming logic, do you really feel it is possible to make a good AI?

Brother Rambo. I don't think I've ever seen any wargame that had excellent AI that would be comparable to even a fairly good human opponent. In this kind of game, the nearest I've seen was Clash of Steel , and much of that was because the AI had special advantages.

Not being a programmer, I can only assume the computer is at it's worst when dealing with intuitive situations. How can anyone script or program intuition? It's at it's best when given very basic options. My great disappointment with the SC AI, as I'm sure was yours and all the other members, was the computer never did anything with Scandinavia or North Africa and never budged with the U. S. if the UK was out of the war. It's D-Day activities were totally unrealistic and easy to parry ... all stuff we've all discussed innumerable times, so there's point in my rehashing it.

But, to reply to your question, I do believe a game on this subject can have a very good AI player and I look forward to playing one, someday.

-- My guess is it would need to be an AI that can function largely on simple decisions while setting, and sticking to, an effective long range strategy. It should also have surprise elements, like landing in Scandinavia and North Africa once in a while as the Allies.

-- -- I hope Hubert including the option we suggested ages ago of having the AI see everything, while the human is confined to the Fog of War. If there's a variable to that, such as the AI seeing twice as far as the human, but not quite everything, that would be even better and still leave some stealth strategies open to the human player; but if given a choice, I'd surrender that in the interest of playing a more skillful computer opponent.

Thanks for the question. I've been wanting to express these things for a long time now.

[hellraiser]

@JJR ref: 'I bet half the clowns who have played SC, didn't even paid for their version.'

Dude, we're in a dead end here - tell me a copy protection that actually worked - nada, niente, nothing, nimic!!!

Can't fight the unfightable - gaming industry is selling products for 10bns/year in the US even when having to deal with loads of warez stuff floating on the net - they're still alive, aren't they?

[jon_j_rambo]

It appears this brief survey is showing a demand for a good AI. I guess everything in life (and afterlife) comes down to the definition of the word, what is 'good'?

*** Go see the Rambo Instant Classic movie, "I Walk the Line", playing in theaters now!

*** Even the Gregory Peck 1970's flick "I Walk the Line" was good I bet only Jersey knows that one!

[jon_j_rambo]

@HR --- Well, it shouldn't be a little harder at least than it currently is? That is, if you're realy truly concerned about Hubert's wallet. We can't stop all crime either, so should quit trying to protect the good people from the bad people?

-Legend

[jon_j_rambo]

New question? If you added up all the SC players, what is the average player?

[hellraiser]

@jjr ->>> 'It appears this brief survey is showing a demand for a good AI.'

Yes, you're right so shut up now LOL

Go start your prayers / incantations / voodoo sh*t to raise your odds for the upcoming PL tourney final vs the ever glowing PL star Dragon 'don't you dare touch my HQs' Heart

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

*** Even the Gregory Peck 1970's flick "I Walk the Line" was good I bet only Jersey knows that one!

Brother Rambo, I'll have to see that one again, but naturally Gregory Peck never made a bad movie. A lot of movies he starred in might have been bad if he weren't starring in it.

For me, considering our interest in this related subject, the favorite Gregory Peck role came late in his career, as Dr Mengele in The Boys from Brazil.

But all of all of them, I'd have to say To Kill a Mockingbird was his greatest role and also his greatest movie.