Battle for Russia version 1.3 out now!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Just add more cities to the bombing queue-similarly

add more hexes where party animals can pop up. I

think being able to completely shut down on-map

partisans by occupying only 3 hexes makes it a bit

too easy for the Germans. I'd add 1-3 hexes per

year after 1941.

[dicedtomato]

I'll give it a try if anyone wants to do TCP/IP or PBEM.

Which folders do I extract the files to?

Diced Tomato

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by dicedtomato:

I'll give it a try if anyone wants to do TCP/IP or PBEM.

Which folders do I extract the files to?

Diced Tomato

Hey Fruit,

just download and extract all files to the Campaign folder.

I play you tcp/ip right now if you like. You got ICQ?

[ebitt]

I'm with you on the drawing side. I'd gladly pay for an editor which allowed you to draw coast lines that matched existing tiles. I'd also pay for an editor which allowed for a per-country customization (Rockets in Country A remain as rocket while in Country B they are Security units). I wish I could find an answer to the partisan/bombing problem. I can't find any way in the current scripts to model the increasing damage over time that Germany suffered from strategic bombing.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

Just add more cities to the bombing queue-similarly

add more hexes where party animals can pop up. I

think being able to completely shut down on-map

partisans by occupying only 3 hexes makes it a bit

too easy for the Germans. I'd add 1-3 hexes per

year after 1941.

Well to completly shut down all partisan activities you have to guard every city. But to shut down the partisan-units yes then it is 3 spots. As this is a corps sized game and Germany used divisions to hunt down the partisans I think this is an issue to handle with care.

But your idea is good, I'm gonna see if that is possible.

[Curry]

Yes partisans are hell. I am just playing around and will have to find those places to control them. But then in the actual war I believe the partisans were a pain in the back for the Germans.

As far as Bombing, I think the Germans are getting bombed a bit too much early on. Perhaps someone here can give me a better picture but I had always thought that the heavy bombing of Germany didnt start until sometime in 1942 and then then really intensivied in late 42 or early 1943. Maybe that is just my perception any one know for sure?

Overall great work on the mod.

[Retributar]

Do a search on "WW2 ALLIED STRATEGIC BOMBING in Europe" to see what your search-engine come's up with!.

[ July 14, 2006, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[dicedtomato]

When I download the zip file, the file is empty.

Diced Tomato

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Kuni:

I just finished a game vs. the Axis AI (expert +2).

Yeah I know the AI stinks, but I noticed several

things (well one thing really) which would impact a

H vs. H game.

Long story short I, as the Russians, won in June '42,

almost entirely because I was outproducing Germany,

even at maximum German expansion (Odessa/Kiev/

Smolensk/Pskov line), by about 3-1+ (thanks to

Ind. Tech 4 by January '42). I literally had

nothing to buy by the end, with over 10,000 MPPs.

After a few encirclements there was almost

nothing the Axis had which stopped me, despite the

fact that killing the essobees often required 6-10

attacks per turn, even if at 0 supply.

Yes the idiot AI didn't help itself, but it found it

very hard to rebuild lost units. In particular if

the Russian tank armies manage to kill or even

severely ding up the German tanks it's all over

for the Fritz's, as the Russians can easily buy

their tanks back while the Germans can't.

At best the Germans won't be able to do much in

the way of encirclements after Sept. '41 because

of the danger of counterattacking Russian tanks,

so I think a blitzkrieg victory by the end of '41

is out of the question (if historical), and

there's no way they can win a grind it out battle

of attrition over several years either.

I think the MPP situation needs rethinking then.

Still not sure what the balance point is, but it's

certainly much too far in Russia's favor now. I'm

almost afraid to try it again vs. the Russian AI

because frankly I'm not sure I can win even if I

do everything right.

[Scook]

I am playing vs computer, Expert +2, and have not looked at what the Soviets get. I keep killing and killing and killing, and I an going into winter '41, and I am wondering if there will ever be a slowdown of Russian unit. Kills are 124 to 4 so far. I am tempted to boot up a Soviet game to get a feel of what they are like, but I am going to try and play this German one to conclusion before looking at the Commies.

Very well done! The opening reminds me of Eastern Front, an old game for the Atari done by Chris Crawford. Uses the same scale as this, but a lot cruder as a game 20 years ago should be.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

Kuni:

I just finished a game vs. the Axis AI (expert +2).

Yeah I know the AI stinks, but I noticed several

things (well one thing really) which would impact a

H vs. H game.

Long story short I, as the Russians, won in June '42,

almost entirely because I was outproducing Germany,

even at maximum German expansion (Odessa/Kiev/

Smolensk/Pskov line), by about 3-1+ (thanks to

Ind. Tech 4 by January '42). I literally had

nothing to buy by the end, with over 10,000 MPPs.

After a few encirclements there was almost

nothing the Axis had which stopped me, despite the

fact that killing the essobees often required 6-10

attacks per turn, even if at 0 supply.

Yes the idiot AI didn't help itself, but it found it

very hard to rebuild lost units. In particular if

the Russian tank armies manage to kill or even

severely ding up the German tanks it's all over

for the Fritz's, as the Russians can easily buy

their tanks back while the Germans can't.

At best the Germans won't be able to do much in

the way of encirclements after Sept. '41 because

of the danger of counterattacking Russian tanks,

so I think a blitzkrieg victory by the end of '41

is out of the question (if historical), and

there's no way they can win a grind it out battle

of attrition over several years either.

I think the MPP situation needs rethinking then.

Still not sure what the balance point is, but it's

certainly much too far in Russia's favor now. I'm

almost afraid to try it again vs. the Russian AI

because frankly I'm not sure I can win even if I

do everything right.

Hey John,

once again great input! You are a real help.

To be honest what you are saying is exactly what I feared when with the 1.2 version reduced german MMP and gave Russia 3 investment chits in IT. A problem with that much MMP is that Russia become too strong too early and that there is a constant number of battles going on which take a large toll so units get depleted and then german experience doesnt matter anymore. With less MMP for both sides there should be more "controlled fighting" so to speak eg less destroyed units and more reduced ones.

I believe you are right but as you played until 1942 I would be glad if you could come with some suggestions how to solve it. The basic facts is like this;

A. German full war production first in 1943

B. Russian war-production full capability in mid 1942(ural factories)

C. Russians still outproducing the germans with about 50% tanks from 1943 forward. And a lot of those german tanks went to other fronts.

I think it would be a good idea to somehow lower russian MMP and maybe slightly increase german IT level from 50%, but NOT increase german with all too much beacause occupying russian cities will give them an extra boost. Plus it would make battles as I said to be too heavy in form of destroyed units.

Maybe one good thing could be too increase German percentage to 70% in industrial output and reducing the number of tech-chits given to Russia???

More what did you notice that you think oughta be adressed? Please tell me.

JerseyJohn found that even with supply 6 it is very hard for the Finns to get Petrozavodsk. I will adress this by giving Finns the territory annexed in the Winter war back to them and they will start as occupied by the russians.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Scook:

I am playing vs computer, Expert +2, and have not looked at what the Soviets get. I keep killing and killing and killing, and I an going into winter '41, and I am wondering if there will ever be a slowdown of Russian unit. Kills are 124 to 4 so far. I am tempted to boot up a Soviet game to get a feel of what they are like, but I am going to try and play this German one to conclusion before looking at the Commies.

Very well done! The opening reminds me of Eastern Front, an old game for the Atari done by Chris Crawford. Uses the same scale as this, but a lot cruder as a game 20 years ago should be.

Thanks for the input. Yeah Soviet Union lost over 5 million soldiers in 1941 but your number is still too high. As I replied to John Di Fool it is clear that the Russian MMP-base expand too quickly so it needs to be adressed.

Can you tell me how you feel it works out with your own MMP, is it too "low", do you often have to stop to reinforce your units?

And what about the supply limit of 6 in occupied russian cities, what effects do you get on your units. Are you able to achieve the historical advances in about the same time or are you falling behind too easily?

What about your german cities, are they too easily reduced too much by the RANDOM BOMBINGS supply events?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Like you I'll wait until Scook finishes his game,

seeing how far he gets. I think 3 IT chits is

likely 2 too many-the Russian should be able to buy

them himself during the mud/snow lulls, esp.

considering the overall 4 chit cap.

Trying to balance this is a pain huh? Now I hope

you know-it-all-pundits have a little more humility

towards Hubert and what he undoubtedly had to go

through (5x worse than Kuni I'm sure). :cool:

[Scook]

Thanks for the input. Yeah Soviet Union lost over 5 million soldiers in 1941 but your number is still too high. As I replied to John Di Fool it is clear that the Russian MMP-base expand too quickly so it needs to be adressed.

Thanks for the reply, I thought I was missing something. So many Russians, so little time.

Can you tell me how you feel it works out with your own MMP, is it too "low", do you often have to stop to reinforce your units?

Hmm, I feel it is about right playing against the computer. I have many German corps understrength that are garrisoning cities until I can get them replacements. But I am hording money and have 1200 MPP to use (2 turns worth, getting about 600 in Nov. 1941).

And what about the supply limit of 6 in occupied russian cities, what effects do you get on your units. Are you able to achieve the historical advances in about the same time or are you falling behind too easily?

6 supply I think is perfect. You can have units reinforce to full strength, but operations are limited unless you have an HQ nearby. My advances are pretty historical. I did not divert my panzers south, I made a bee-line for Moscow, and took it in early November. Leningrad fell about the same time too. Army Group South has had a rough go without any support, and I am at the outskirts of Kharkov Dec. '41. If I diverted AG Center's tanks south, I think I would be very close to where I should be histoically.

What about your german cities, are they too easily reduced too much by the RANDOM BOMBINGS supply events?

Way too much bombing in 1941. Berlin sits at 1, and several other cities at 2.

Let me see what happens going into 1942. I was going to try and put some money into tech, but I think I will spend it all getting men into my units. Oh, I do think the German Panzers are very godlike in offensive manuevers, which is they way it should be. Against any competent human opponent, Russia should trash the tanks and overwhelm the Germans without too much difficulty. Maybe somehow upping the defense so they take a few less losses to keep them operationally strong and not having to refit them as often. We can debate that one of course, as most actions had 50% of tanks out of action within the 1st 3 days of any operation in Russia.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I often have noticed that Tank on Tank battles tend

to be pretty bloody. Good point Scook. But I will

note that extended German tank operations often did

lead to lots of disabled tanks.

[Scook]

Made it to July 1942. The attrition rate is a bit much to keep up. I had it up to 194 Russians K.O.'d to 11 German, but then it was trying to hold back a tidal wave, couldnt keep up. Only reason I made it so far was by taking Moscow. Manstein had it right by saying taking Moscow would eliminate the only main rail junction for the Soviets and make a large coordinated attack possible, if this scenario is any indicator. I did not take Kharkov in the south, we kept slugging it out between Kiev and Kharkov until I ran out of oomph and he kept bringing units in.

Time to look at it from the Soviet perspective.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Scook:

Made it to July 1942. The attrition rate is a bit much to keep up. I had it up to 194 Russians K.O.'d to 11 German, but then it was trying to hold back a tidal wave, couldnt keep up. Only reason I made it so far was by taking Moscow. Manstein had it right by saying taking Moscow would eliminate the only main rail junction for the Soviets and make a large coordinated attack possible, if this scenario is any indicator. I did not take Kharkov in the south, we kept slugging it out between Kiev and Kharkov until I ran out of oomph and he kept bringing units in.

Time to look at it from the Soviet perspective.

Man talk about the russian hordes.

[ July 16, 2006, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Kuniworth]

Guys, how do you like the new weather?

[Scook]

The weather matches what I would expect in Russia, and comes close to what the huge game Fire in the East, or hmm, can't remember the name, the massive one from SPI. Weather was a consideration for the Summer offensive of '42 for Germany.

[Scook]

One thing I noticed about the Soviet side, what is the command radius for HQ? I doubt you can have it chsnge based on individual HQ's, as maybe 5 Soviet commanders would have a radius equal to German HQ. As it stands, I would probably shrink the radius for Soviet to give the lack of command structure and communication the Russians had.

I have "relieved" 2 Soviet commanders so far and brought Konev and Zhukov to the map. I help the Germans with their supply problems by bombing the cities they have captured on the Road to Moscow. The kill ratio is 87 Soviet dead vs 4 German, but attrition and lack of supply have ground Armie Groups North and Center to a standstill. AG South and taken Kiev from me in a slugfest, and the hapless Romanians are being held on the Dneistr river by a handful of Hero Units.

I look at the supply and units in the North, and I know I can make the German fold like a wet paper bag during this 1st winter. Would it be considered "too gamey" because I strategic bomb German held cities to keep his supply low? I can see this being a problem in pvp also, as I have enough bombers to pick any "Front" on the map and keep the Buntas from bullets and food.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Scook brings up a couple of good points-things that

have bugged me too. My USSR HQs in my test game were

controlling units upwards of 10+ spaces away (or it

seemed like that). And would strategic bombing

really pork cities like they do? Interdiction of a

few supply trains here and there is one thing, but

porking an entire front's supply via bombing runs?

Perhaps put a smaller hard limit on bombers, or lower

their strategic attack/raise their ground attack.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Scook:

One thing I noticed about the Soviet side, what is the command radius for HQ? I doubt you can have it chsnge based on individual HQ's, as maybe 5 Soviet commanders would have a radius equal to German HQ. As it stands, I would probably shrink the radius for Soviet to give the lack of command structure and communication the Russians had.

I have "relieved" 2 Soviet commanders so far and brought Konev and Zhukov to the map. I help the Germans with their supply problems by bombing the cities they have captured on the Road to Moscow. The kill ratio is 87 Soviet dead vs 4 German, but attrition and lack of supply have ground Armie Groups North and Center to a standstill. AG South and taken Kiev from me in a slugfest, and the hapless Romanians are being held on the Dneistr river by a handful of Hero Units.

I look at the supply and units in the North, and I know I can make the German fold like a wet paper bag during this 1st winter. Would it be considered "too gamey" because I strategic bomb German held cities to keep his supply low? I can see this being a problem in pvp also, as I have enough bombers to pick any "Front" on the map and keep the Buntas from bullets and food.

No actually this is a preferred tactics of myself. A planned change for the next update would put a cap on heavy bombers tech of 3(have germans start at heavy bombers level 0 as russians would be quite historical) and reduce the strategic bombing value to 1 instead of 5.

Other planned changes for next version I'm thinking about would be increase of german IT-level to 60 or 70% and abolish the starting russian tech chits in IT. Add to this that russian airplanes will start much closer to the front on june 22nd so Luftwaffe can spot them and destroy them. That would have the red airforce out of action for a while.

[Kuniworth]

Another solution could be to delete bomber squadrons and have the fighter units work as airfleets. Russia would have the STAVKA bomber command of course but otherwise just fighters.

[Scook]

Cut it to one chit in IT to start, limit the Soviet Bombers to 2 or 3. Change max radius for Soviet HQs to 6-7 squares.

The bombing of German cities by Allies: any chance you can use variables in the % and use the year as a variable: (YEAR - 1940)*3% ?

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Scook:

Cut it to one chit in IT to start, limit the Soviet Bombers to 2 or 3. Change max radius for Soviet HQs to 6-7 squares.

The bombing of German cities by Allies: any chance you can use variables in the % and use the year as a variable: (YEAR - 1940)*3% ?

Sorry can't be done

Regarding the air-war. What do you say about deleteing bomber units for both sides except for Stavka bomber command? After all the war in air on the eastern front focused on ground support. With that change Russia would have a hard build limit of 8 airfleets and 1 bomber, and Germany of 4 airfleets, 0 bombers. Finland, Romania and Hungary 1 airfleet each.

So Axis 7 airfleets

Russia 8+1

seems better as the aim of the introduction of bombers here were to simulate ground-support but it had the effect that Russia annihilates axis supply in an unrealistic way.