FoxDrake Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 HERE IS MY RANT! I know I know...everyone who is a Fanboy is going to flame me...they are going to say "well don't come back..." and "bite me" and "we love Hubert Cater..." and yada, yada, yada... I am hoping that by staring off this way I can disarm all the "fanboy" losers who never critize or complain or say anything negative...but I think I've taken about all I can stand from the VAPORWARE of a game. I'D JUST LIKE TO KNOW 1 THING!!!!!!!! Where is it!!!!!!? I bought SC1 what? over 3 years ago...and it was already out for like what 2 years? SC2 was in the works back them (or that's what the posts seemed to indicate).... So, like a patient fan, I've kept the Battlefront.com website in the favorties list and have checked back from time to time.... I've seen countless posts about "flying saucers" (from some wacko poster) and discussions about every nausiating facit of the game (should the Russians get Cossacks? Why can't [insert obscure Romanian Plane here] be availabe to the 3rd Reich when the Country joins as an ally as it's primary fighter? Can facists rule the USA? GOOD GREIF! Will you please all SHUT UP! and GET THIS BOZO Cater and these slacker, hippie stoners to release this FREAKEN GAME! Whew I feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 With one post and registred in dcember 2005 your credibility is kinda low.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Originally posted by FoxDrake: ... I am hoping that by staring off this way I can disarm all the "fanboy" losers who never critize or complain or say anything negative... FoxDrake Three years and 6+ thousand posts ago I started out complaining about, oh, let's see ... The narrow Atlantic, he unrealistic invasion system, he absense of a Russian Winter, the grossly disproportionate role of air fleets, the instant production system, the lack of diplomatic options and events, etc & etc Other people were complaining about the same things and, incredibly, Hubert began immediately creating patches to correct all (or most) of those things. I've never seen a game designer who was anywhere as responsive to his customer base. Neither had anyone else. When he reached the point of being unable to go further in the existing game system he began doing it in a new system, which is what we're all waiting for. We have a right to say it's taking too long -- which few of us are -- because, unlike yourself, we've been here all along helping to shape the thing. Which is different from playing it in isolation for three years and suddenly demanding a new toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 How much you wanna bet this is gonna be another "one post wonder". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I always wondered how a person acts when they run out of Ritalin........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Could you repeat that? My mind was elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggs Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I feel stupider for having read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 I work in a hydrocarbon lab and I definitely can recognize a pet-troll smell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxDrake Posted December 15, 2005 Author Share Posted December 15, 2005 Originally posted by Kuniworth: With one post and registred in dcember 2005 your credibility is kinda low.... If you read my post you would have understood that I never felt the need to post until now...I've been patiently waiting...I'm a fan of SC1 and have been looking forward to SC2...So, I've been willing to be patient and check back from time to time....but I think the process might have been hijacked by the countless suggestions...ultimately, you just need to make a game and release it and tell the freaks that "over suggest" to SHUT UP! God I don't care if some obscure "bobble" is present in the game....I liked SC1 for its solid play...and that's what I'm looking forward to in SC2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Originally posted by Comrade Trapp: How much you wanna bet this is gonna be another "one post wonder". Oh, how totally wrong! FoxDrake As one of the "Freaks who over suggest ..." and need to be told to "Shut up," I find myself standing in awe of your three years of profound silence. I'm sure that, in your quiet way you've great help in improving the game. And now you've come to demand a new one pronto since you've done so much to bring it about. -- It can be any old game, like the dozens that have come and gone and that nobody likes very much. I'm sure that's the advice Hubert's been searching for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Originally posted by FoxDrake: but I think the process might have been hijacked by the countless suggestions FYI, the game has been based on a design document written up quite some time ago and that is the framework I have been working from ever since. While I've always encouraged posts and ideas (as with SC1) there is never a guarantee that any of them will show up in the game but every once in a while something will catch my eye and if it follows the current framework and is easy enough to tweak it might just get included... and if not it might be noted for a future add-on, patch, and/or future game. To put this into perspective, consider that this process was used from the SC1 forum to largely influence the design of SC2. BUT, for the most part, and since everyone is learning just how long it takes to make a game, especially a game designed and coded by one person, a lot of the original design for SC2 has had to be scaled back in order to just finish the game. So what does this mean? Well, for the record forum posts really have had no effect on the length of time to complete this game. Rather it is the sheer scale and scope of this game that is the culprit. Also, you should keep in mind a few things: 1) SC1 was worked on for a year and a half before anyone even knew it existed 2) SC2 is much bigger project than SC1 3) Despite reports to the contrary, I am a real person and this is only my second game. So even I am learning quite a few things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Well FoxDrake I hope your happy now! I sit in awe that a developer the caliber of HC would even acknowledge much less reply to such a shortsighted post that you opened this thread with. Now, you realize that you have just touched the pinnacle of hypocrisy, that through your inconsiderate post, catalizing HC's response, you have contributed to the delay of SC2. On behalf of the whole SC forum, our humble thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clabinskys Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 FoxDrake, Apparently, you have no idea what it takes to write an application let-alone a game. I'm a manager for a California based company developing applications, and have some idea of how much work Hubert is putting into this. He is the only manager, the only designer, and the only programmer on this project. I you think that programming only involves coding, you are dead wrong. Design, feasability tests, issue tracking and follow up, testing testing testing. Trust me, they guy is doing a great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clabinskys Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Sorry for mistyping, my contacts are firt...oops, dirty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxDrake Posted December 15, 2005 Author Share Posted December 15, 2005 I am a real person and this is only my second game. So even I am learning quite a few things. [/QB]Well thanks for replying. It's nice to hear from a real person. I'll continue to check back but this is showing slight patterns to other board driven game design experiences...(i.e. Moo3, Civ4, GalCivII). It just seems these "release dates" get pushed back...and back....while the Fanboy gad-flys nausingly hype the game...only to have it released to a "what a piece of garbage" response. I was (STRESS "WAS") a fan of MoO and MoO2 so...I followed the design and fanboy hype surrounding MoO3...on the forums all these lamos would come out of the wood-work, request all these nausiating features (which the designers rushed to include), [e.g. multi-player (WHICH IN MY OPINION USUALLY SUCKS IN STATEGY GAME - give me a good AI anytime) and other annoying little bobbles (I want to customize each ship, I want to pick individual aliens to live on my 50 billion population homeworld)]...the end result was a multi-player piece of garbage that played like "doing a speadsheet." Hubert...just keep in mind (and I am sure you are) that there are more fans (of most games) that don't hang out on the website, post constantly and want every little tweek in the game... In fact, I'm begining to think these designer websites are a bad idea. I always wonder why the designer is reading the site and posting, instead of busy coding the game! In addition, I just don't want to see the "silent majority" suffer at the hands of the "vocal minority of fanboy posters that have no lives and need jobs." Finally, if you (and I mean all game designers) post a "release date" christ, try and stick to it...! If it was me I would multiply my estimate by a factor of 3 so when it ran double, I'd seem like a genius when I beat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clabinskys Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 FoxDrake, You touch on a number of issues that plague the industry which encompass all types of software development - estimating project length and feature creep. Hubert is no different the vast majority of companies developing software by pushing back release dates and there is a simple reason for it. Estimating the time it takes to develop an application is extremely difficult just because of the complexity created by the many parts of the project. Naturally, large corporations can always add resources when a milestone is delayed, but smaller companies often can't, and certainly not HC. A manager from MS ones said something like "when you have estimated the time you think it will take to finish the application, double the time and you should be close.." Feature creep is certainly a problem in many projects, but considering HC's responses mentioning using a design document and only adding features easy to implement, which I can relate to, he seems to be in control. You're going to have to accept that projects like these are very rarely finished on time. As languages are becoming more sophisticated and the people involved build up a code base and their own experience solving similar problems, things usually improve somewhat. The back side of this is that with more experience developers tend to increase complexity, which is both good and bad. I had a friend who went to college some time ago and called to discuss an assignment he was working on. He had never programmed before, but the assignment involved programming and he needed help. One of the things he asked which put a smile on my face was if programming in reality meant looking for bugs. He said he spent more time finding bugs than he did coding. Even though experienced programmers have far less bugs, once you have a bug, you might be stuck for hours or even days finding and correcting it. There is no silver bullet to estimate the time it takes fixing issues. Another part that delays projects is a lack of risk detection and management. A project like SC2 involves a number of issues with high risk i.e complex technical issues to which the exact solution is unknown, but a lot of these issues are only discovered in the implementation phase. Being able to account for all these issues at design time is very hard, if not impossible in a medium to large project. Once an issue like this is discovered and depending on how serious it is, deadlines may have to be delayed. Your points are well taken, but it does sound very similar to some people I have worked with who have no idea what development really is like. The risk of using the advice from the MS guy is that you will scare people off. HC has done his best estimating the project and I'm positive you'll be happy and all is forgiven once he's done. Just my 2 cents.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Originally posted by FoxDrake: ... I'm begining to think these designer websites are a bad idea. I always wonder why the designer is reading the site and posting, instead of busy coding the game! In addition, I just don't want to see the "silent majority" suffer at the hands of the "vocal minority of fanboy posters that have no lives and need jobs." Hopefully that's your third and last post here. Your reasoning is beyond moronic. If you'd been reading the posts here for the past three years you'd have some idea of how the game has been shaped around suggestions made by us, the Fanboys. Since you're so fond of using that label, there are a few that can be put on you as well, as none of them are particularly pleasant I won't write them. You have nothing worth saying and only came in to antagonize people who have done something real for the game while you've been watching cartoons and playing against the AI. Your three posts were three too many. Here's hoping you express them somewhere else. Another post with that fanboy garbage and I'll be pushing to have you banned. I'm sure it will be a popular cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Originally posted by clabinskys: FoxDrake, You touch on a number of issues that plague the industry ...Yeah, but he can do it without the antagonistic garbage and the demeaning fanboy remarks. He ought to already be banned for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 15, 2005 Share Posted December 15, 2005 Another post with that fanboy garbage and I'll be pushing to have you banned. I'm sure it will be a popular cause....except that bans are not done by popular vote. I am going to close this thread. FoxDrake has made his point, and Hubert has replied. None of the discussion is going to get SC2 released any sooner, so before things get ugly and heads start rolling, I'll lock this up. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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