Make Weather Last for FULL turn before changes

[Blashy]

Ok, the one thing I HATED about SC is I thought the game was luck based WAY too much for tech.

It was all about the tech and more tech.

It was so much a factor that I only played games that were no tech games.

I'm not big on luck being a deciding factor. I have not found this to be the case in SC2, yes in my probably over 100 games now I've seen it occur 2-3 times. I can live with that because the rest of the games it adds variety and adaptation.

[Cary]

Look folks. No reason the weather shouldn't change over time. Your real complaint is that players take turns over different times. Fair. That's an odd aspect of the scenario design that I don't think I particularly like, mainly because it becomes harder to figure out how long it actually will be before reinforcements come in. (Note, not impossible, just harder -- playing the game well necessitates having a turn chart printed up for yourself).

But overall, it's only a little odder abstraction than the IGO-UGO abstraction within a turn that's supposed to be the same time. (You think having the weather change mid-turn is bad, try playing OCS or old Third Reich, where the sequencing within a turn could flip... talk about a tough game mechanic.) It's not as if Real Time Sims don't come with their own batch of abstractions and weirdnesses.

edit: I realize I'm restating Desert Dave's ninth stanza from 6/25 below.

It's a game. The game designer has decided on three or four things he wants to capture about World War II, and abstracted much of the rest. My sense is that its a very good game as a result. Sure, the dream, world enough and time, is that we'd be able to play out every SC2 battle as a CM campaign of operations. But at some point that effort to avoid abstraction has its own cost (not least that the forest gets lost in the trees and weeds.)

On weather, by the way, it's worth noting that there was a subtle advantage the Allies had: it was much easier for Brits and Americans to spot weather traveling on the prevailing Westerlies than it was for the Axis.... Should Hubert have simulated this? Probably not, but it's a neat bit of trivia, kind of the opposite of the Germans in World War I having good reason to attack at dawn.

[Major Spinello]

I´m often quite frustrated about the many misunderstandings here, so I´m happy to read that in the meantime it at least got noticed that the complaint here was never about random weather as such, but about different weather during (what at least should be) the same turn (because it is ridiculous to assume that Axis and Allies would only move on alternating dates).

I´m actually not altogether unhappy with the "editor"-hint. I didn´t know one could change that there actually.

The other thing was the fear that this would give an advantage to the player who opens a turn. Like Rolend, I don´t think this is a big deal, but then: Clash of Steel had a concept called "initiative". At each turn, the side having the initiative would open the turn. I do not really remember how the formula for "initiative" was. However, it was a GREAT feature because if you got the initiative, you sometimes could move two impulses (sub-turns)in a row!

Question: is there a way to alternate between which side opens a turn in the editor, too?

[Blashy]

No for your question Major Spinello.

[Cary]

The other thing was the fear that this would give an advantage to the player who opens a turn. Like Rolend, I don´t think this is a big deal, but then: Clash of Steel had a concept called "initiative". At each turn, the side having the initiative would open the turn. I do not really remember how the formula for "initiative" was. However, it was a GREAT feature because if you got the initiative, you sometimes could move two impulses (sub-turns)in a row!

That is a cool feature, but you have to remember that it becomes the game by dwarfing in importance most other game mechanics. The double-move means, in essence, that you can effectively double (or more) the effectiveness of your forces at a given time in the game.

At that point, winning the game ends up being little more than figuring out when you can take the double move to best effect.

That said, there have been a number of neat ways to break the lockstep IGOUGO mechanics that are more subtle -- chit pulls, where you take turns activating random portions of your units, or card-based expenditures, where you take turns activating a certain number of units.

Of course, it might help to think of a clear-mud-clear sequence as a less-dramatic version of the double move. Indeed, if you changed the term "mud" to "command paralysis" you could use a clear mud clear sequence to simulate the first month of Barbarossa, or the Soviet Winter counteroffensive. People just get hung up on the terminology sometimes.

[ June 28, 2006, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Cary ]

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Sombra:

I think you forget 2 very important details in the discussion:

1. You already know the % chance for weather for each zone in the game (You can plan ahead)

2. Imagine your fix is implemented. This gives either the german player or the allied player a huge advantage. How so? Lets say Axis is the first in the round he knows exactly how the weather will be for the allied player and can plan ahead accordingly. Gee mud allied player will be paralyzed can take this city without risk and allied players AF will be grounded. The allied player doesnt know if his advances in mud will be suddenly countered by clear weather´next turn for the axis. Therefore the person who stasrts the turn has the advantage.

Yes weather plays a huge factor in the game but right now you know it will most likely rain in October November. good time to reinforce and go to your winter quarters don´t you think?

You have explained this well but, hey, this is turn based game. BASIC, CONSTANT AND ONLY CONCEPT for all turn based games so far was that opponent sides play his turn in same time period (everything different is illogical and out of common sense) and if game have some kind of weather concept it is made accordingly to this. So, to my opinion SC2 have basic concept wrong in this matter and current weather system will be great if SC2 was RTS game.

Also your opinion about advantage for Axis is very doubtful. Panzer General 2 game have very similar weather concept and I haven’t seen any advantage for Axis?

Also I can ask you similar question: If Axis in his turn has mud and Allies has clear or vice versa is this advantage for side which has clear weather?

[ June 29, 2006, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[Sombra]

Vveed here we disagree. I think knowing what your enemy can do or not do on it turn is a much bigger advantage than you think.

What is the real problem, sometimes you have bad weather and you see your eenmy has bad luck . Still you know already what the weather will be most likely. For example in France you can go the high risk winter campaign(My prefered way to play ) or play the slow Terif attack in spring (exactly to prevent weather problems). Point is you are taking calculated chances. Sometimes you are lucky sometimes you win. Thats war. Even if I get angry many times with my luck I think the system works

Regarding the fixes: Randomly chose who starts a turn or based on initative . This IMHO an even bigger mistake. Imagine yourswelf two turn axis beginning of Barbarossa nd the Germans are already with MT2 in Moscow even before the Allies can react. b

[vveedd]

We disagree much less then you think Sombra. If I understood correctly in both case we agreed that this is advantage for one player. Or I am wrong?

We don’t agree which is bigger. To my opinion in your case knowing what your opponent can do is much less advantage then mud-clear case. After all, in your case first player is also surprised by weather effect at start of his turn and his units will gain same effects (AF will not be usable, movement will be reduced etc) like units from second player. In my case player with mud turn don’t have same effects and situation at all like second player and he is in much unfair situation then second player in your case.

And finally fact which is absolutely absurd – with this turn concept (i'll say again to be clear - TURN CONCEPT not weather)one player enters in next season sooner then opponent.

[ June 29, 2006, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[Rolend]

Well there has awalys been a problem with turn based strat games in terms of who goes first has the advantage. There have been various ways to over come this problem like the use of reactive fire, this is where when on your turn you move your unit next to an enemy unit, the enemy unit gets a 'free' fire at your unit then your unit finishes its move. I have always like this aporach and maybe we can see it in SC 3 It makes defense a bit easier and that is the way it should be.

Anyway back to the point of weather, I have to totaly agree with the point weedd(by the way is it Weedd or Vveedd?) made in that the advantage of a clear mud clear turn sequence is MUCH larger then knowing the weather your oppent will have. It would be nice to at least have the option to set it to same weather if that is how we prefer to play.