Summary after playing SC2 (v.1.0) and SC1

[vveedd]

Ok, here are my thoughts about SC2 after playing it against AI and humans opponent. SC2 is much better game then SC1 there is no doubt but this game should and must be much better. I’ll not talk about some knowing issues (amphibious transports, DOW to majors, neutral units, plunder rule etc) because they are already addressed. I will talk about other things (issues) which SC2 brought from SC1.

We still have useless units. When I say useless I don’t mean that this units don’t have purpose in game, I mean that this units are not used or very little used by players. Me and lots of other player suggested Hubert that tanks should have more significant role in SC2 and they have that but what about strategic bombers? To my opinion they are still “useless” like in SC1. Haven’t seen that players bought many bombers, especially Axis players. I suggested to Hubert long time ago different air units concept. Air fleets should have more fighter role like intercept, escort and make light damage to land units. Bombers should have two main roles – first, tactical and second, strategic. Tactical will be for ground support and air to naval fight or in other words for making damage to land and naval units and strategic will be for strategic bombardments. These roles, players will adjust for each bomber unit thru research and technology. For instance – tactical land bombardment technology, tactical naval bombardment technology, strategic bombardment technology etc. If player researched level 1 of tactical land bombardment technology and upgrade bomber, this unit will have capability to do more damage to land unit, if player upgrade bomber with tactical naval bombardment technology this unit will have capability to do more damage to naval units and so on. (Also in first case you can change unit look to Stuka for instance. ; -)) With that concept players will buy FOR SURE much more bombers (and fighters for bomber escorts). And I will add something more to that – when player decided to go with upgrades in tactical direction for one unit it can’t upgrade this unit with strategic technology anymore. In that way it is avoided to have bomber units with both capabilities because those kinds of units has not existed in real WWII history.Actually this is nothing new, we already have similar concept for naval units. Instead destroyer unit we have ASW technology for battleships and cruisers.

Next “useless” unit is rockets. It can be used only on level 4 or 5. On fewer levels it makes little or no damage. This is very realistic and historically correct but at least range should be bigger at starting level just because of gameplay. Or maybe it will be better that instead or rockets we have something else more useable like cheap militia units or partisans. To me it is better idea that players can buy partisans instead this appearance from tin air.

Diplomacy is new and it is good but, to my opinion, also need some changes. For example, when Germany and Italy invested all 5 chits in one minor country they have 25% and 15% chance for success in one turn. Too fast for time line in SC2 in my opinion. To existing diplomacy concept I will add 3 layers of diplomacy. First layer will be at 50%, second at 75% and third on 100%. So everything will work like it works now but when player reached first and after that second layer all invested diplomatic chits will be removed. At third layer chits will be also removed and minor will join major power so here is no difference from existing concept. Additional effect for first and second layer will be nice but not necessary. For example, at first layer major power could start receive MPP from that country, at second level major power units can enter into minor but there is still no minor units and at third will be like we have now. Actually this concept is like in real life – first you have diplomatic contacts on embassy level, then on ministers level and then on highest level.

Triggers for US/USSR readiness should be re-done. I agree that they should be connected to world events and war situation but also it should be more independent triggers (like time triggers). In that way (maybe) we will avoid misuse from player who know all triggers and we will not have some stupid house rules like “must enter into Cairo” and so on. To be continued…

[Blashy]

1- Bombers rock in SC2, they are VERY lethal for tactical use. Bomb brest and its port to 0 which can be done in a few turns and then the unit there is always out of supply, start hiting it with 1-2 AFs and you can easily take it.

Get LR tech and you can keep ALL french cities at 0, which means the enemy is out of supply and can't operate troops.

For Germany, the game just came out, expect to see players click that if you bomb a russian city to 0, your crappy 5 supply you get from taken cities will be BETTER than their supply. Imagine Moscow at 0 MPP and you are attacking it. Two bombers on the russian front are the one thing I hate seeing the most as Allies.

Diplomacy, it is already being refined.

Triggers are scripts, some need adjusting that's all, like the Cairo example you stated. Sometimes you need a script to cover something (DoW Turkey by Axis).

[Timskorn]

Yep, I have a feeling someone will come out with a LR and Heavy Bomber strategy that'll rip up German MPP's in France and Germany. There's probably at least 50-80 MPP's there to be knocked out, even more if they are getting IT bonuses.

[Blashy]

20MPPs Berlin, 16 Paris, 20 the German mine, 16 Benelux. That alone is 72 MPPs. 3 Bombers at level 2 can easily keep all those locations at 0.

4 Bombers at level 2, add 2 German cities and that is 92mpps.

Anytime you loose 92mpps in SC2, you are hurting really bad.

Use battleships with GLR 1 and you can keep Brest and Bordeaux at 0 as well.

102MPPs gone.

[Liam]

Strategic actually seems as a way of suffocating Axis, U-boats are a bit meek without tech.. The supply system for U-boats is a bit poorly set, they have to sit by or in a port for awhile? To regain Morale and such... 1 visit to near a Port or in a Axis Port should fully regroup a Sub

British and American Bombers pilots lost their morale too, from continual losses and missions, that is not represented so harshly as the only German strategic weapon...

[Blashy]

uboats actually have a prefered system than any other unit.

They can stay out for very long periods of time before loosing morale and readiness, especially in supply lanes when they are sinking enemy vessels.

Bombers are affected like any other unit, have a bomber at STR 7 and it will do a poor job, they need to be in top shape constantly.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Blashy:

1- Bombers rock in SC2, they are VERY lethal for tactical use. Bomb brest and its port to 0 which can be done in a few turns and then the unit there is always out of supply, start hiting it with 1-2 AFs and you can easily take it.

Get LR tech and you can keep ALL french cities at 0, which means the enemy is out of supply and can't operate troops.

For Germany, the game just came out, expect to see players click that if you bomb a russian city to 0, your crappy 5 supply you get from taken cities will be BETTER than their supply. Imagine Moscow at 0 MPP and you are attacking it. Two bombers on the russian front are the one thing I hate seeing the most as Allies.

As I said Blashy, strategic bombers are not without purpose. I have tried this tactic with Axis and it is solid but it is much profitable to buy 2 tanks group instead one strategic bombers. Only a few players will decide to use this strategy and because of that strategic bombers (and rockets) as SC2 units are not in use as they should be.

[ April 29, 2006, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[Exel]

The only "useless" unit in SC2 are the Engineers, and only because the construction times are a tad too long.

Rockets are very effective if used correctly, I always buy them when playing Axis.

Bombers are way better than in SC1 too. With the two bomber fleets you get for free as the Allies (one US, one UK) you can constantly keep the French and German mines at 0 production and reduce the coastal cities and ports. They are also excellent at crippling the morale of enemy units in crucial battles. My only gripe with the bombers and air units in general is their range - can lvl 5 long-range bombers reach Romanian oil fields from England as they did historically?

[Blashy]

level 5 will give you +5 tiles strike range, that is 13 tiles.

[Night]

The bombers that bombed Romania did NOT fly from England, they took off from Lybia in North Africa.

Anti Aircraft tech should apply to ALL resources and units, german flakpanzers were effective close support against dive-bombers and such, and this should be represented in-game. Also, the Germans very pretty dam good at shooting down allied bombers, both with fighters and flak/AA. It is slightly unrealistic the way the allies can start a huge and effective bombing campaign so early just doesn't make sense.

For much of the early years, the bombers cost the allies more resources then they damaged, they really kept flying to keep as much pressure off Russia as possible. It was not really until 43' that the Luftwaffe began to really give ground... or air I guess... to the western allies, and it wasn't until 44' that the allies had a dominant control of the sky. This should be reflected in SC2 by giving more german resources anti-air tech off the bat and having interceptors do more damage to bombers, even when escorted. Higher bomber techs should provide the bombers with better capability to deal with interceptors. This would make it more of a challenge for the allies to shut down supply in France or anywhere for that matter. After all it is slightly gamey for anyone to be able to shut down an entire country like France so that no supplies or commerce can move.

If we had railroad tiles or roads that could be bombed it would be more realistic, it would provide the allies with softer targets, however it would not allow them to shut down everything so fast.

[Blashy]

Night, bombers take alot of damage at the start of the game. loosing 2-3 points per attack is very costly, more so than the damage delt.

It is not until you get into bomber tech that you start to gain ground, but the enemy can counter with AA tech.

Shutdown of France is not gamey, you can do it but it will cost you in other areas, ground troops and tech in ground troops. Having 4 Bombers at level 1-2 is a big expense and you will sacrifice in other areas.

[Panzerkeil]

I have to disagree with you somewhat about the historical bomber losses, Night. When the Allies tried unescorted daylight bombing the bombers got ripped to shreds by German fighters. It was not quite so when the Americans began escorting their bombers with P-47's. Then when the Americans began escorting the bombers with P-51's, it was all over for the Luftwaffe. If they wanted to get to the bombers, they had to deal with the escorts, which soon ripped the guts out of the German fighters.