Philosophical question for you SC2 experts

[vector]

I find it difficult to build up to the historical German techs to what they actually were in 1945. I spend too much money on units or rebuilding damaged units.

In your opinion what did Germany reach in SC2 terms?

1. Aircraft: Is the ME262 considered a "5" in aircraft tech? Or are 1950 jets like the Mig 15 or Saber Jet considered a "5".

2: Tanks: is the tiger II tank a 5?

3. Rockets: Is the V2 a "5" in rocketry or something lower? They had a design that could reach NY but it was never built.

4. U-Boats: Is the Type XXI considered a "5" with auto loaders, radar, sonar, snorkel, etc.

Anybody on this forum every put out a matrix on what tech level maps to what historical weapon? That would be pretty cool to see.

Example German Fighter tech level:

1. FW 187

2. ME 109B

3. ME 109G-10

4. FW 190

5. ME 262

I'm not saying the above is correct only providing an example.

[ChrisND]

Another thing to consider is that tech levels might not represent the highest level of sophistication reached, but may represent what has become standrd equipment.

[Liam]

few toys:

German tanks:

lvl 0 Panzer2

lvl 1 T-38

lvl 2 Panzer4

lvl 3 Panther ?

lvl 4 Tiger ?

lvl 5 King Tiger ?

German Jets:

lvl0 Me109 E

lvl1 109 K ?

lvl2 FW190-D

lvl3 FW190-D13???

lvl4 I have no idea

lvl5 never seen it

[Guest Mike]

The models are simple enough

fighter

0 & 1 are 109's

2 = 190A

3 = 190D

4 = Ta152 (or perhaps jsut a recoloured 190D?)

5 = 262

I forget what the bombers are - I think 5 is the Ju-287 or something like that.

so in those terms the 262 is level 5, they never achieved level 5 bomber - I think the He177 is about level 2 or 3?

Tanks - arguably the Tiger 2 is not more advanced - it's just bigger (another shortcoming of SC2 - bigger is not always better...). the Tiger 1 is a 1941 design, the Panther 1942 - so german armour got to a 1942 design with its main battle tank - or level 4 according to the models.

subs I have no idea about - probably the type XXI is lvl 5 but I've never researched so far - certainly it was the most advanced sub for anoteh 5-10 years!

The V-2 should not be lvl 5 - but it had a 200 mile (320km) range, which is how many hexes in SC2?? At least 4 or 5 - so that's the level of it in the game - never mind that htere was never anything with a smaller range that wasa precursor to it - the V-1 has nothign to do with it for example - but in SC2 you get earlier tech with shorter ranges that are quiet useful.

[Blashy]

Remember that the highest level in tech the Germans had was not in massive numbers, it was quite low.

So you might achieve level 5 tanks but you might not be able to have all tanks at that level.

The same for jets.

[Canuck_TAR]

Tanks are:

0 - PzII

1 - Pz38t

2 - PzIII

3 - PzIV

4 - Tiger

5 - Panther

[Lars]

Tech is more than just hardware, it's also how you use it.

So for fighters, for instance, Level 1 might be figuring out the finger four, instead of the vee.

Infrastructure, don't think Level 5 is bullet trains. More likely Mussolini got real good with a pencil and a schedule.

And all this is relative. A philosophical question, as you say. Don't get hung up on the little models.

[Retributar]

One thing to keep in mind with the ME262, the KingTiger, etc...and other advanced weapon's,...is that their quantity should...i think, be limited according to what History Tell's us that they actually produced,...or were theoretically capable of producing under varying condition's and changed situation's/circumstance's!.

[Liam]

I think the sprites are abstract to represent more than the model but the evolvement. As 70% of a tank unit at level4 may still be actually new and improved Panzer 4s...

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Retributar:

One thing to keep in mind with the ME262, the KingTiger, etc...and other advanced weapon's,...is that their quantity should...i think, be limited according to what History Tell's us that they actually produced,...or were theoretically capable of producing under varying condition's and changed situation's/circumstance's!.

I don't find limits are necessarry.

A L5 tank cost X more MPPs, which means a player will have a hard time producing alot, or if he does produce all german tanks at level 5, he will shortchange himself somewhere else.

I like that it leaves it to the players to decide where to go.

MPPs and hard build limits are enough for limits.

[TFL]

I totally agree with Blashy. In real world too few me262's were made and production was only started in 44 (or late 43, but the same thing), allthough they could have started it in 42/early 43. Why should you be forced to make the same mistake with hitler and use me262 as a bomber instead of as fighter and hence delay its operational usage?

And if the Germans in your game are doing better than historically (more MMPs, better production tech etc.), they probably can also produce more of the advanced fighting tools, right?

[Liam]

The one issue is that if you produce level5 German tanks Blashy, why build anything else? They're Powerful, considering they can kill off a Russian unit with 1 attack! 6 or 7 by Sept 1941 with some Morale is more than deadly... This is not a defensive game

Originally posted by Blashy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Retributar:

One thing to keep in mind with the ME262, the KingTiger, etc...and other advanced weapon's,...is that their quantity should...i think, be limited according to what History Tell's us that they actually produced,...or were theoretically capable of producing under varying condition's and changed situation's/circumstance's!.

I don't find limits are necessarry.

A L5 tank cost X more MPPs, which means a player will have a hard time producing alot, or if he does produce all german tanks at level 5, he will shortchange himself somewhere else.

I like that it leaves it to the players to decide where to go.

MPPs and hard build limits are enough for limits. </font>

[jon_j_rambo]

Dude, what good are a few fancy Bunta fighters going to do with Patton & the entire Allied forces in France?