German strategy in 40-41

[JJColorado]

So - assume Germany knocks out France by April or May of 1940. What should Germany attempt to accomplish before war with Russia? Obviously Sealion is one option. But - assuming that the Brits defend Britain well - what should Germany try to do? I've read here that some people take a lot of minors - some of which surprise me - Switzerland for example.

As a German what minors should be attacked and in what general order (assume Denmark is out in 1939)? How many Germans should be sent to north Africa and when should that offensive begin? Should Morocco/Algeria/Tunisia be attacked before going for Egypt?

Any comments? And don't say "it depends on the situation and what the Allies are doing". Just assume the Allies are fairly passive and defending Britain well with some forces also left in Egypt.

Thanks!

P.S. I'm assuming Norway should be done as quickly as possible - maybe 1 turn after France falls since the German air is able to fly up there. quickly.

[TaoJah]

The minors are all fun and nice, but knocking the UK out is ALOT more rewarding IMHO...

What I do this is this...

One group (the two armies with no movement upgrade, one other army, a HQ, the three planes and the two corps in west Germany (that youy upgrade in turn one), goes to Benelux on turn one and takes it in turn two, then goes to France. This group does a Sealion and takes London and Manchester.

The rest of your troops (a HQ, two armies, both tanks and the rest of the corps) stay in Poland and take it. As soon as Italy joins the war, you move that entire group (minus three corps to man Poland) to Italy, move it to Africa and take Egypt.

This makes the UK surrender.

From there on : the first group goes from the UK to the north of Poland and invades Russie there. The second group goes to the northeast, through Syria and invades Russia from the South.

In the mean time you can pick up a few minors (Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Iraq, Iran), but the plan is to stay focussed on knocking out the UK somewhere in the winter of 1940 (there is no winter in the African desert).

IMHO this has these advantages

- you get more MPP from the UK and some minors then you get from just all the minors.

- your Italian fleet can go to the Atlantic (you get Gibraltar when tht UK surrenders).

- the US can't do a proper Sealion without the UK-mainland to start it from.

- you can attack Russia from two sides : from the north and from the south.

- Once you take Moscow and Stalingrad, the war is over and you won the game !!!

[ November 24, 2006, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: TaoJah ]

[The K Man]

Interesting tactic. I'm curious as to your breakdown of group one and two. Is it pretty evenly split with Corps, armies, and tanks. I always feel like I don't have enough troops already, and I not even doing half the stuff you are. Not to mention the money needed for the amphib landings (in Uk.)

[TaoJah]

Well, here is the exact breakdown in the two groups, together with what I do with them on turn one.

Group one.

...........

8th army (operate to 75,15)

14th army (operate to 75,16)

10th army (operate to 76,17)

Rundstedt HQ (operate to 77,16)

XI corps (upgrade to 1,1,1)

XII corps (upgrade to 1,1,1)

XXIII corps (operate to 78, 14) => attacks Denmark on turn 2.

Luftflotte I (move to 82, 14) => attacks Denmark on turn 2.

Luftflotte IV (move to 81, 17) => attacks Denmark on turn 2.

Luftflotte III (upgrade to 1) => attacks Denmark on turn 2.

Group two.

..............

XIII Corps (moves to 89,15 just to draw fire)

VIII Corps (moves to 86,18 just to draw fire)

XVI Tank (moves to 89,15)

4th Army (attacks Polish army on 91,14)

3th Army (attacks Polish army on 91,14)

XIX Tank (attacks Polish army on 91,14)

II Corps (attacks Polish army on 91,14)

And I never buy any extra troops (except some Corps to garrison things) : these are the only troops I use in the entire game. I put all my money in research (5 chits in Advanced infantry, 3 in Mobility, 5 in Advanced tanks) and constantly keep all troops at Strength 8 or more.

For Sealion, I use the three planes to attack London (plus the Italian plane), I amphiby only the 3 armies from Brussels (defended by all three subs and the two cruisers) and land with the paratroopers in London. Next turn I move in the HQ and go to Manchester.

[Liam]

I'm not the best Axis Player, but I will unveil some secrets!

First of all, Minors are a waste for the Axis! Leave them be... or you'll pay for it early!

Use Diplomacy to attempt to bring in Spain. At exactly the same point where you take down France. There are several variables to Take Down France quicker. It's either cheaper and more cautious method or faster and slightly more expensive method. Either way smarter to avoid letting your German units border 2 French Armies if you can avoid it that are high in Strength

Second move is after France, ignore UK Island, unless it's completely defenseless. If you got Spain, mow down Egypt. Plan out your moves about 8 Turns ahead, so you do not operate unneccessarily. Garrison the West with Minor Units and Spanish ones.. Build up Experience for all Axis Airfleets on Soft Targets... In egypt or Spain for instance. Avoid Naval Battles as Axis without a HUGE gain, they're are too few Axis Ships to gamble against a Decent Allied player. Keep your Axis ships in Port!

Denmark is the only Scando nation I'd worry about! Unless the USA enters early, then Rampage, you get no MPPs from Scandanavia as far as I know other than Transporation of Ore as Germany, so it's worthless, unless the UK gets Diplo Luck, counter her after Spain. That or Keep USA out... Your next goal is to knock out several minors for USSR to get the Iniative, how and which are up to you. Tunisia-Vichy-Syria-Iraq or Iran. Or any combo that you wish! Swiss-Greece and Yugo are tougher, and two are diplomatic hits so I'd avoid Minor grabbing till Spain is in your Bag or invade Spain as you invade USSR.

The Goal is to have 6 HQs at least. All the Corps and Armies out there, and focus on Maxed Land Techs by Sept of '41 then Destroy the USSR. Earlier the better. The earlier France fell the better, that is the quicker you will have your Goals! Spain comes in the game earlier along with Italy, same... Land Techs maxed! Then Destroy as much of the USSR as you can, avoid Caucasus, take Leningrad-Moscow then Hammer through the South in the Winter months take up position to take Stalingrad in '42 and game over

That is my ideal, but sometimes certian factors inerrupt this. I.E. A good Allied player.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Liam:

The Goal is to have 6 HQs at least. All the Corps and Armies out there

Woohaa !!! I end the game in 1942 with just the units I started with (plus some Corps for garrison duty) teched up. Just the 2 HQ, 5 armies, 2 tanks, 3 airplanes and 6 corps.

Why the heck do you need all those units ???

[Liam]

you're not playing the level of game to use 'em all you will lose.. just your initial units??? By end of '42 at least all the corps should be built. You need them to prevent 25 Western Allied Units and 40 or so USSR Units from killing you. What is 11 or 12 German units going to vs that?

Originally posted by TaoJah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

The Goal is to have 6 HQs at least. All the Corps and Armies out there

Woohaa !!! I end the game in 1942 with just the units I started with (plus some Corps for garrison duty) teched up. Just the 2 HQ, 5 armies, 2 tanks, 3 airplanes and 6 corps.

Why the heck do you need all those units ??? </font>

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Liam:

By end of '42 at least all the corps should be built. You need them to prevent 25 Western Allied Units and 40 or so USSR Units from killing you. What is 11 or 12 German units going to vs that?

By that time, the game is over.

If you knock the UK out, you "just" have to take Moscow and Stalingrad and you won...

Besides, those 25 Western Allies troops that you're talking about ? With the UK mainland conquered and the entire Italian navy together with the German navy in the Atlantic, D-Day isn't very impressive, I can tell you that !

[n0kn0k]

This topic would be so much more clear if the topic starter had stated if it was a AI or PvP game ;p Since u are both right in your respected fields of gameplay

[Terif]

LoL - you two are speaking about two totally different things...

Remember, Taojah is only playing against the AI and therefore speaking about a game human vs AI. And against the AI you can do everything you like, even buying no additional units and will still win...

Liam is talking about a multiplayer game against another human player - and this is something completely different .

[Terif]

n0kn0k - we had the same thought at the same time

[n0kn0k]

Great minds think alike hehe.

[Terif]

For multiplayer a short outline of todays standard strategy:

- LC and Denmark turn 2

- When France falls doesn´t really matter. Axis have enough time for all their goals till Barbarossa and the sooner France falls, the sooner Allies get their readiness boosts...simply evens out, so no real gain for Axis if they conquer France earlier - at least not if they have higher losses then and against a good player they will have.. . Usually France falls around April 1940 with the first or second mud turn after the winter.

- After France the only must have for Axis is Egypt. Till Barbarossa they don´t need to conquer additional countries since with 1.05a a conquered Scandinavia doesn´t improve their mpps any more (changed from 1.04).

- With Barbarossa and USA joining Axis can conquer the rest of the neutrals except Turkey. Everyone else then can and should be annexed.

Nevertheless, this is only the standard against a passive (and unexperienced) allied player . Against a better player Axis will be forced to change their strategy accordingly...e.g. there they will have to also conquer/liberate Tunisia and Algier during 1940.

In the end - against a good human player - it comes down to: "it depends on the situation and what the Allies are doing" .

If you don´t change your strategy accordingly to what happens on the battlefield, you will have a problem sooner or later and usually loose the war .

[mustang96]

No Offence to you TaoJah but do you ever play the game historically? I know this is a game, but do you ever let the AI build up it's forces. I don't see the point of playing a game the same way every time. You will find that if you play it some what like WW2 played out that the AI will give you a bit of a challenge! It will never be as smart as a human opponent but at least it will be fun to play.

Mustang

[Liam]

I thought it was either way advice, AI or MultiPlayer. Basically what Terif said is right but you can play it the way you like, I enjoy historical Conquests sometimes vs MultiPlayer. I'll take some of the Historic ations, I'll even run out Rommel in North Africa! Along with 2 Luftflottes in France attempting to Sea Lion. Really a waste as UK can base her fighters out of Range, the LW only gains experience and possibly takes strength hits from Capitol attacks. I think that Historically a Smart German Army would've hit the Russians better prepared so I go into the USSR with 3 tanks, 2 more armies, 1 more AF, 2 or 3 more HQs with a ton of Corps... Then try to max out my reserves for two objectives, destroy the incoming D-Day or enhance my Eastern Front. A very clever Allied player does deserve respect, he will shove 25 Allied units into France by '42 easy... I can usually put 15 in by '41 with some Diplomatic Luck. So your initial starting units will not do you much good alone... VS AI, the game is sorta boring. I could beat the AI by DOWing every minor and every Major as Germany alone right off the bat. Have done it too... Before Poland is even conquored, try it that is actually fun

P.S. attempting to run various strategies and tactics in Game is not easy, it is better to read AARs and copy those moves by watching top5 top10 player tactics... You will learn a lot by watching Terif by PBEM in action. He will usually play you or anyone if you register for a League, as he enjoys competitive play. I learned 5Xs per game what I learn versus a typical player with his strategies and tactics. Iron Ranger, Hellraiser, Rambo, Codename Condor, Pfieffer, JollyGuy, few others all real good to play with too.. Good Action and Learn lots

Originally posted by TaoJah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

The Goal is to have 6 HQs at least. All the Corps and Armies out there

Woohaa !!! I end the game in 1942 with just the units I started with (plus some Corps for garrison duty) teched up. Just the 2 HQ, 5 armies, 2 tanks, 3 airplanes and 6 corps.

Why the heck do you need all those units ??? </font>

[Franky-Boy]

Originally posted by Terif:

For multiplayer a short outline of todays standard strategy:

- LC and Denmark turn 2

What is LC?

[Terif]

LC = Low Countries = Benelux

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by mustang96:

No Offence to you TaoJah but do you ever play the game historically?

No, because when do you stop playing Historically ?

Historically, Germany lost, so somewhere you got to start playing a-historically.

(well, in a sense, everyone plays it historical to a certain level : some go far with the historically and buy units historical, others -like me- play historically by, euh, starting in Germany)

Everyone has fun in other ways : to me, the appeal of this game is to win at the realiest possible date against the AI (since the game doesn't give scores anymore).

[mustang96]

Taojah

I get where your coming from, but my meaning of historical is Germany doesn't invade France until Spring40 and there's no Sealion because it never happened! Also i give the AI more units with scripting events that I've put in to make the game more interesting! Hey everyone play's there own way right!

Mustang

[Epaulard]

About attacking Russia from south:

I tried during 2 games (multiplayer).

1) Only with italians : 1 QG, 3 armies

My armies were stuck in mountains, impossible to go forward. And impossible to go back

Won by crushing russia with germany

2) I sent an Afrika corps: 1 QG, 1 army and 2 panzers

I achieve the capture of 2 cities and 2 oil fields with tanks, but then i was stuck too: the two cities were max supply 3 (impossible to operate) and my HQ were unable to reach them (stuck in the mountains)

So i guess i need at least 2 HQ to resolve this supply problem?

Another point about supply in north africa for axis :

Cities and ports are allways at 5 supply. Can they reach 8 (or 10) by making Spain or Turkey join axis or the "detroits" (gibraltar and the turkey'sone) aren't land tile?

[ChrisND]

If yer gonna do the south attack, enough HQs to make a supply string across the mountains, surprise, and weather need to be on your side. Plus, a couple of paratroopers dont hurt either.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Epaulard:

Cities and ports are allways at 5 supply. Can they reach 8 (or 10) by making Spain or Turkey join axis or the "detroits" (gibraltar and the turkey'sone) aren't land tile?

Yes, if you take Turkey, those cities to 8 (well, at least they SHOULD, I haven't taken Turkey since version 1.0). And the Russian cities should go to 5 then.

But that's not really needed to attack Russia from the South.

I take 1 HQ, 2 panzers, 2 armies, 2 corps, 1 paratrooper, 3 German planes and 2 Italian planes to attack Russia from the South.

I take the two cities north of Turkey (I don't bother with the oil fields) and place my HQ close to them so I get supply.

Then I take Stalingrad and win the game.

[Liam]

The USSR Still can fight on with The Urals. If the Axis get Turkey easily and with reinforcements this is possible. With my current game vs Rambo he's losing Poland to the Russians while taking the Caucasus, fact is that game is probably lost because Western Allies overcommitted to poor OPs all over France and are facing level 4 subs but still!!! Turkey is a tough cookie for either side depending on Units in your Army 5 or 6 will not cut it. I placed about double that to defend vs Germany and she was stuck there for a year and half.. It required 4 or 5 airfleets to dislodge the USSR

Originally posted by TaoJah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Epaulard:

Cities and ports are allways at 5 supply. Can they reach 8 (or 10) by making Spain or Turkey join axis or the "detroits" (gibraltar and the turkey'sone) aren't land tile?

Yes, if you take Turkey, those cities to 8 (well, at least they SHOULD, I haven't taken Turkey since version 1.0). And the Russian cities should go to 5 then.

But that's not really needed to attack Russia from the South.

I take 1 HQ, 2 panzers, 2 armies, 2 corps, 1 paratrooper, 3 German planes and 2 Italian planes to attack Russia from the South.

I take the two cities north of Turkey (I don't bother with the oil fields) and place my HQ close to them so I get supply.

Then I take Stalingrad and win the game. </font>

[TaoJah]

Well, if you want to attack Turkey,you got to be sure that you can cut it off from Russian reinforcements on the first turn.

If you attack the eastern Turkisch city (don't remember the name), you can run with a mobility 2 tank all the way to the north and thus make it impossible for Russia to operate defence troops to Turkey.

If you don't do this and you let him operate a Russian HQ and some troops in, you're in for a long fight there !

If you really want, you can abuse this by giving Russia the posibility to operate troops to the capital and then close it, so he can't operate them out again to defend -say- Moscow. That are 5 troops less to worry about, because they'll never leave the Turkish capital. Too cheesy for my taste, just saying.

[Liam]

Tao, you can conquest Turkey this way

The Mountains aren't the only hinderance for either side. It's nothing but mountains, so movement and attack is a pain. Conquoring Turkey is for supply and for the Caucasus, the only objective. The Germans and Italians get full supply and a great place to knockout a large amount of Russian production. If they fail, they lose the game because it is a narrow front and the Germans will not be able to conquor USSR Up North as easy... But I suppose just 3 oilfields is more than 30% of European Russia... The Cities and supply is worth even more than that. It's equivelant of Conquoring Leningrad-Moscow-and almost Stalingrad at the same time!