JerseyJohn Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I'd like to see a provision where the Axis has an option to not set up a Vichy Government, maybe push for all of France and have an option of assigning the Vichy area to Italy. In which case I think Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Syria would either become independant states or part of a Free French coalition. Surviving French Units would remain in existence even in France and even after the loss of Paris; it would be the Allied player's option to either evacuate them or have them be destroyed in their homeland. Other Surviving units outside of France would remain in existence regardless of where they happen to be and the French Fleet would, in it's entirety, become part of the Royal Navy. France could no longer produce new units till it recaptures France and Paris -- or this is done by other Allied units, but those already in existence would be normal units and can be reinforced, etc. ... The Axis should then have the option of offering both Gibraltar and Morocco to Spain as a prize for joining them, perhaps even adding Algeria as a further incentive. Tunisia, and present Vichy should be reserved for Italy and, as per EdwinP's many suggestions, Syria could be used as an Axis offer to Turkey. Not an Allied offer, however, as FreeFrench Syria would be a part of their coalition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I like this proposal as it seems to be rather balanced in terms of game play with advantages and disadvantages for each option. If Germany decides not to offer the Vichy Option then Vichy Troops and Naval units do not disband and the UK has a much stronger navy, if the Allied player has not disbanded the French Navy! If the Germans create a Vichy France then the French navy is largely destroyed when Paris is captured but they lose some French production and may face increased Spanish and Turkish Anxiety if they attack Vichy France later. Offering territories to Spain as an incentive (a free diplomatic chit) to join the Axis also seems reasonable to me, especially if Spanish production was limited to building and benefiting Spanish Units. Similarly offering French Syria to Turkey is a good diplomatic incentive (think of it as a free Diplomatic Chit), but I would limit Turkish production to benefiting Turkish units if Turkey subsequently joins the Axis, otherwise their would be no cost to German production. The Axis should then have the option of offering both Gibraltar and Morocco to Spain as a prize for joining them, perhaps even adding Algeria as a further incentive. Another good idea, but would this change of contol lead to increased Guerrilla activity by the local Arabs and Berbers. If so, then a change a control could activate Partisans for North Africa to force Spain to garrison these new territories. Overall, I like this idea of JereyJonh's and most humbly request those in the know to playtest it to determine if it is truely a fair and balanced option that should be considered for SC2. Also - currently the game tracks production for Russia, Italy, France, US, Germany, and the UK. I suggest adding to this list Turkey and Spain, the two largest European neutral nations in WWII. As long as they remain neutral their production would be zero, but once drawn into the war their resources would be limited to supporting their own armed forces. This change would also open the potential for interesting What If Scenario's such as WWI where Turkey was allied with Germany. [ April 21, 2004, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 To elaborate on JerseyJohn's suggestion, I would also allow the Axis to offer Tunisia and the Vichy Area in France as a further incentive to Spain to join the Axis, but this offer which would infuriate the Italisns should come with a serious cost - the Italians might be persuded by the Allies to become Neutral if the Allies spend a diplomatic chit to excerbate Italian anger towards the Germans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Might be easier to just give the French a second capital in Syria for an option. Then you could decide whether to continue fighting the delaying battle in France or spend the MPP to evacuate your troops for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 Edwin Great expanding on the idea -- much of which is yours from the SC Forum, along with JP Wagner and many others, I just recapped it here. Can't add anything to what you wrote, I think you've thought it out very concisely. Lars That's a good idea -- although I think Algiers would have been the choice, but it's still the same basic idea and I think it has great merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Lars That's a good idea -- although I think Algiers would have been the choice, but it's still the same basic idea and I think it has great merit. Well, if I were the French player, I'd want it as far away on the map as possible. It would give the Axis a little more reason to dump resources into Africa. Now, do I go down through Turkey or through Eygpt to knock them out? Decisions, decisions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I like this idea, once again you can alter history which is what we are trying to do with this game. I vote for this feature big time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt88 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I like the consequences but not the cause. Whether to Vichy or not should not be a German option but a Fench/AI option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 True, the German player would almost always take Vichy just to make the problem go away for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 Blashy Glad you like it. We had a couple of long threads on it at SC a while back; I honestly don't know who was responsible for which ideas. Kurt & Lars, I don't quite understand -- I'm talking about this as an option for the Axis, why should the French be the ones to decide? They would hardly be in a position to demand Germany accept their negotiated peace! Lars Regarding Algeria vs Syria as a capital location, there was a tremendously strong French influence in Algeria, many Frenchmen had setted there, something that was missing in Syria. It could always just be that it's Algeria first and then Syria if Algiers falls. Edwin I think the Berber Partisan idea is an excellent one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt88 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 JJ, This isn't about peace, this is about surrender or fight to the bitter end. The Germans can 'propose' a Vichy, if the still active Fench armies wanna continue the struggle isn't for the German player to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: I don't quite understand -- I'm talking about this as an option for the Axis, why should the French be the ones to decide? They would hardly be in a position to demand Germany accept their negotiated peace!Because the German player is going to take the Vichy option every time. He can pick off those colonies later at his leisure. Better than having to deal with the French Fleet and Armies right when you'd rather be planning Sealion. Should be the French choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 Kurt Yes, I get that, but what I'm suggesting is that Vichy or no Vichy be a German option. In fact, I'd like to see it done that way -- Paris falls and the German player has the option to offer a Vichy treaty. If doesn't the French have the option of requesting it and the German can then either accept or decline. If the French accept an offered Vichy then it proceeds as usual, if not or if the Germans don't offer it in the first place then the French fighting men are never instructed by their government to lay down their arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Regarding Algeria vs Syria as a capital location, there was a tremendously strong French influence in Algeria, many Frenchmen had setted there, something that was missing in Syria. It could always just be that it's Algeria first and then Syria if Algiers falls.I think Algeria would be too close to the Italian player. Wouldn't last long. You cite a good historical reason for placing it there but I'm looking at it from a gameplay point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 Lars I might not because I might want to go directly from France into Spain without having to increase U. S. readiness with an invasion of Vichy -- which is particularly odd in the game because Germany would have just finished accepting the Vichy arrangement [ April 21, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 [continued from above post] Lars, Regarding the relocated capital -- yes, I'd go for it either way. There was also a vast French colonial empire and there's no reason they wouldn't just have administered things from some farther off location, or even from London. An interesting detail to be worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt88 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Kurt Yes, I get that, but what I'm suggesting is that Vichy or no Vichy be a German option. In fact, I'd like to see it done that way -- Paris falls and the German player has the option to offer a Vichy treaty. If doesn't the French have the option of requesting it and the German can then either accept or decline. If the French accept an offered Vichy then it proceeds as usual, if not or if the Germans don't offer it in the first place then the French fighting men are never instructed by their government to lay down their arms. I can see your point. You can look at it both ways : - The Jerries can propose a Vichy and then it's up to the Fench player/ai to decide wheter or not to accept it/fight to the end. - If no proposal comes the Fench can choose to surrender and then it's up to the Germans wheter or not(full conquest) a Vichy be created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool the 2nd Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Originally posted by Lars: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JerseyJohn: I don't quite understand -- I'm talking about this as an option for the Axis, why should the French be the ones to decide? They would hardly be in a position to demand Germany accept their negotiated peace!Because the German player is going to take the Vichy option every time. He can pick off those colonies later at his leisure. Better than having to deal with the French Fleet and Armies right when you'd rather be planning Sealion. Should be the French choice. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 I would like to see a percentage chance of some French fleets going Axis. In real life the Brits had to sink a large portion of it. Maybe if you create Vichy you get a chance to get some French ships. It would be a little more encentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 JerseyJohn and John DiFiool Excellent Points Whether or not to offer Vichy offers several advantages and disadvantages to both sides and it "Changes the Game". Of course you could always make this choice an option in the game setup and call it - Vichy Decision Y/N - for those who want more predictability. A. Why the Germans Might Select Vichy - Stops the conflict with France and allows the Italians and Germans to concentrate on another front. - Disbands the French Navy for the most part - Gives them a shorter border to defend in France and protect Northern Italy from Invasion - Fast and easy plunder to finance an early Sea Lion. B. Why the Germans Might Not Select Vichy - They want to secure more production - They want to attack induce Spain to join the Axis by offering them French territory, so they can take Gibraltar sooner. - As John DiFool mentioned that want to avoid any war readiness penalties from attacking Vichy later in the game. If the Germans don't accept Vichy the Brits gain on several fronts: - The gain any French ships not disbanded - They gain a production bonus while the vichy cities hold out. - They have time to Entrench in the cities of Algeria and Libya. - The Brits can reinforce the French overseas colonies before the Axis can launch an invasion I think that the Germans can develop winning strategies using both options. In addition HC et al might tie this into his new diplomatic system. Example - the Allies can use a diplomatic chit to encourage the French Forces to continue the fight, if the Axis have not already allocated a a diplomatic chit to counter convince the French. ie: German offers French Vichy - French accept. German offers French Vichy - French Reject as UK used a diplomatic chit to convince them to fight on. Example - The Axis can use, as JerseyJohn, suggests an offer of Gibraltar, Morroco and Algeria territory to induce Spain to join the Axis. The Allies can counter this with a diplomatic chit, costing the Allies MPPs but helping to ensure that Spain remains neutral. Example - The Axis can offer Tunisia and the area of Vichy France to Spain as further encouragement to join the Axis; however, this angers the Italians and the Brits may be able to convince the Italians to return to Neutrality by using a diplomatic chit if the Axis have not previously used a chit to secure good Italian relations. I wonder, will players be able to convince other nations to pull out of the war and adopt a policy of neutrality? perhaps by using a combination of diplomatic chits and events. I could see Spain entering the war and then the allies having liberated France convincing Spain to withdraw from the Axis and return to a neutral status. [ April 21, 2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 Edwin "I think that the Germans can develop winning strategies using both options. In addition HC et al might tie this into his new diplomatic system." Excellent summary and expansion on all points and throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 JerseyJohn Thanks for the feedback. It would be interesting to hear what HC and the playtesters think of your proposal and perhaps give us some insight into the new diplomatic system. [ April 21, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted April 22, 2004 Author Share Posted April 22, 2004 A good time for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Perhaps another way of doing it is that France surrenders as usual, Vichy is created as usual, BUT there is a very small % chance of Syria and/or Algeria continuing to fight on. This is assuming that they took up De Gaulle's call to carry on the fight, and at least it might be easier on the programming side. They will then provide MPPs to the UK. I'd also want all of this that has been discussed to be an option, rather than something that's built in that we can't change. How this would affect war readiness is also a problem, and I'm inclined to think that the status quo is better (though there's nothing wrong with having options). Anyway, if Battlefront take up Rambo's advice then they won't be listening to anyone but him, so maybe we're wasting our breath anyway! [ April 22, 2004, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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