Terif V Jollyguy AAR, Wonder Weapons vs. Super Long Range Air

[Terif]

Wow - that was a bloody turn...

Time to revenge the just lost german army, 2 corps and a paratrooper:

The 12 german units at the western front under Rommel and Rundstedt do a good job and remove all remaining US and UK units from the continent: 3 armies and a corps destroyed, french mines and Brussel deliver their coal and wine again to the german cause.

Big bang in Russia...after the dust settles both frontlines are now minimum 4 tiles separated again - by killing all units in between... .

Much alike the happenings in the west, here also 3 fallen russian armies and a corps colour the ground blood-red...but mainly killed by rockets and airplanes, accompanied by heavy airbattles against the russian fighters - with tanks and corps only removing the last remains instead of the pure ground warfare further west.

Russian tanks are watched closely now at Kharkov and Voronezh from the german frontline around Kiev-Smolensk-Moskow.

[Liam]

Very interesting AAR

Seems like JollyGuy has improved a great deal. When I first played him he was quite beatable. Looks like I'll have to watch out now.. He's taking Lessons from the Grand Master of SC2 and drawing blood at the same time!

[Terif]

August 1942:

Both sides are licking wounds and rebuilding their forces...nevertheless axis units are occupying the empty Vologdy and Gorky in northern Russia - seemingly abandoned when concentrating the russian forces around Kharkov. German rockets and italian bombers train at the two russian cruisers in the Black Sea...finally sinking them in front of Odessa.

September 1942:

Kharkov and the mines get reconquered, the last russian fortifications in the area destroyed. Tank battle at Voronezh results in mutual destruction but also conquest of the city by Axis.

Meantime Allies invade in force Norway via Bergen with HQs and the evacuees of the second Dunkirk a few weeks before - Axis respond by sending Rundstedt and his 6 unit task force to clear the area.

Finally Allies show first signs of disintegration: A UK commando unit decides it is not worth to fight for the allied cause and defects. Leaving all weapons behind, only equipped with the secret Long Range 5 technology they jump into Essen. German officers welcome them with open arms and pass over the LR5 planes to german scientists for analyzation. UK refugees are granted asylum and also the opportunity to join the german paratroopers to bring in their longrange jump experience if they wish to do so .

[Iron Ranger]

Looks like the begining of the end for Allies. Lossing citys that deap in USSR = no chance unless western allies do something amazing soon.

[Terif]

Those cities are not really deep in USSR - this is not SC1 where these cities in deed mostly represent the point of no return. But here in SC2 the map is much larger and Allies have a profound income base...against a good axis player these cities will always fall and Allies are still way ahead in mpps/turn .

Even when Russia is reduced to Urals only, that´s nowhere near the end for Allies as long as their combat forces are still intact at this point since they then will still be able to compete with Axis in mpps/turn. It only means Axis are far stretched and their frontline thin - often the right opportunity to strike back as Allies .

P.S.: in SC2 you really need to wean yourself of from surrendering early - events in the first 2-3 years of the war can nearly always be compensated by adapting and changing to the right strategy...they are just the foreplay . Even when loosing a big battle - only 2-3 turns of retreating so your forces can breath through and recover from previous losses are often enough to be able to turn the tide again if you recognize the right time to strike .

[SeaMonkey]

So true, Terif. I find that two equally knowledgable opponents usually end up grinding it out as the clock runs down trying to secure one of the victory cities.

A lot of times its Paris, sometimes Moscow or Rome, to a lesser degree London or Warsaw.

As the Axis you're essentially given 4 victory cities, keep them and get a draw, add London or Moscow and you get the victory.

As Allies just keep your beginning capitals and add Paris, IMO the easiest to liberate, or maybe a surprise capture of Rome.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

JG JG he's our man!

If he can't do it noone can!

[sorry JJR. ]

[Jollyguy]

I agree with Terif. I’ve learned from him (the hard way) that even losing Stalingrad does not necessarily mean the end of Russia, at least not right away and if the Allies have planned accordingly. In my All-in Egyptian Gambit I foolishly attacked around Stalingrad, losing twice as many units as I destroyed. It would have been better had I pulled back to the Urals, as their a harder nut to crack. Plus, I just got pasting by Terif where he was the Allies and me Axis. My Allied game has much improved since I started playing him, but still has a long way to go. I’m anxious to incorporate some of the more innovative strategies into a more balanced games, as I think there are still strategies waiting to be discovered.

In this game its September/October, 1942, and the Allies retook Bergen. But before reinforcing beyond the corp level I waited to see it the Axis would be quick to respond. They were, operating in a substantial force, including two armies and an HQ. The Brits ship back out, losing a rear guard corp in the process. Terif seems determined to hold onto his Scandanavian conquest. Meanwhile, the RN keeps the Narvik ore turned off by keeping the port at 0.

And in another novel strategy, the Brits hit the unoccupied German mine with fighters and carriers, then reduce it to 0 with their British and US bomber, as self-hotseating seemed to indicate that first hitting an empty AA mine resource hex with fighters and carriers (which suffer no damage) made it less effective to subsequent bomber attack. Once reduced to 0 a reconstituted British paratrooper, manned by survivors of the earlier Finnish gambit, land and move into the unoccupied more northern city. The plan is to keep the city and mine at four or less so they can’t be upgraded to AA again. The reconstituted paratroop only cost something like 115 to buy and 50 to upgrade to LR air, and exacted probably 100 + in mpps in damage from what appeared to be non-HQ supported attacks by corps. And, being in the city at 5 supply, I’ll be able to buy him back again for only 115 mpps. If this works I’ll be able to rotate my bombers among Brussels and the French mine (which have been kept at 0 since the earlier raid), plus the German mine and the German city, keeping their mpps near 0 also. Combined that’s 16 + 16 + 20 + 10, or 62 mpps per turn. The only way Terif could challenge this is to pull a fighter or two from Russia, which has advantages of its own for the Allied side on the Russian front. But my long range air fighters can escort, so I should be okay. The reason I reduced the mine to 0 is because it’s Fall and mud/snow will soon set in, and I’m not sure if my bomber will be able to reach it. There should be a clear turn somewhere in my next 4 or 5 turns that will allow me to knock it back down to 4 or less so it can’t upgrade.

We’re going into the Winter of 1942/1943 and the Axis maintain possession of all Western Europe, having successfully repulsed my Brussels raid. We’ll see what strategies develop during 1943, and if Terif can keep the Brits and Yanks off the continent for another year.

Bob

[Terif]

Winter war in Finland and Russia...russian commando forces cut off Scandinavias land connection, but rebuilt finish forces got already detached to trace and hunt down the hidden enemies in their territory.

Simultaneously german and russian elite soldiers equipped with warm winter clothes are engaged in cat and mouse battles near the arctic circle and around Archangel...first russian forces tried to sneak behind the german frontline and surprise them, but only to get ambushed themselves ...and so in the forests 8 tiles east of Archangel one of the russian corps gets finally destroyed after its comrades left him there alone to die and fled via the Transsiberia railway, blowing it to pieces behind them.

Meanwhile for the first time of the war, all german rocket units got concentrated against one single target: Rostov

Together with the big railroad guns already used to conquer Sevastopol, rocket shower after rocket shower went down on the defenders of Rostov in their fortifications and in the city....after 2 weeks of bombardment finally 2 demoralized russian armies lay down their arms to german ground troops that are accepting their capitulation - awaiting them at the citiy limits, ready to occupy the now empty Rostov next turn.

[jon_j_rambo]

Is Yodl the grandson of Manstein? It's a good thing he wasn't born in 1911, or I'd be working in a preztel factory

[Liam]

I find Jolly Guys' strategy with using Allied Airpower to reduce Mines and even sacrifice a Para can be a very powerful choice. You have to do the math if your strategy is overall more bang for your buck, it will only add to your winning abilities, plus if the enemy is weak in defense your experienced units can be used later to do more damage. On the alternative Strategic Attacks are usually easy to counter in SC2. U-Boats can be hunted down too easily and it's rare that the Allied Navy's are too weak to destroy them. Despite their great recon ability they're just not worth it most of the time.

Plus strategic bombing can be very painful if your intercepted and the enemy has good AA tech. Not just but you don't get much experience for these missions and the overall damage can be compensated for. Early on if your opponent sees your strategy he'll invest heavily in AA and negate your ability to crush his cities and factories.

So I find that Bombers more often than not are great for recon and for special missions and that raiding should only be normally used to make them more experienced. Heavy Bomber Tech should make them more elusive to AA and harder to shoot down by Fighters so they still get used for more variety of missions.

lastly in my last Strategy VS Rambo I used a Russian Bomber against Iraq. I sent it on 100 Missions... Keeping the OilWell at close to 0 for 50-60 turns. Just a little test, it forced Germany to research AA tech, as I also built level4 US Bombers to level Germany from Sweden. Ultimately EXPENSIVE!!! Though the fear factor alone may be worth it... still losing 4 or 5 strength points of those Behemoth Bomber Units is very demoralizing...

P.S. Never counterattack Stalingrad when you're weak!!! It's an awful spot to attempt to retake as USSR with a few units, I have Kamikazed myself there vs Terif on more than one ocassion. And against other players... Better to hit the Germans in the Caucasus deeper South or near the Urals, it's difficult when they must guess where you're at or worse, attacking Mountains only.. He may have a surplus of MPPs or Units behind those Puppies and can come out and retake Russia! Done it and have had it done to me

Hardest thing to judge as Axis, is when to go West Young man? When to remove the threat there before it becomes so imbedded like an ingrown toenail and you may never remove it! USA-UK can defeat Germany alone, especially if killing the USSR took everything out of the Germans. There is not Navy they can build in 1945 or '46 really that is capable of taking out the English Isles so the game will be essentially over if too much of the West has fallen by then.

[ March 27, 2007, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Jollyguy]

I think if people put on their thinking caps there are any number of strategies out there waiting to be discovered. I’m sharing as I want to get the ideas in circulation, and so players will realize the game doesn’t have to become stale. I also like reading other strategies, such as Liam’s high tech bombers. If you caught your opponent napping those monsters would be devastating, as he proved they can be. And that’s also what Terif has done with his rockets strategy (following the lead of Rambo I believe).

I remember rockets couldn’t be transported in SC 1, so I’m going to have to check to see if this changed in SC 2. If not, then rockets would pretty much be an Axis only strategy among the better players, as in most games the Russians just wouldn’t be afforded the luxury and time needed to research and build them along with the ground units and fighters needed for protection. But if they can be transported, then the US might be able to do in Western Europe what Terif is doing to me in Russia. They could lay waste to Brussels and maybe Paris, come ashore, and then continue inland. I’m going to do a self-hotseat game when I get home from work and check it out.

Anyway, in our game, if I can’t effectively counter his German rockets then I’ll take solace in being the only player to get both Finland and Bulgaria to surrender in a game against the Master.

Bob

[SeaMonkey]

Rockets are transportable in SC2, but the force limitations inhibit the Allies, other than USSR, from their practical use.

Now if they are considered as artillery then the force limitations, especially for USA, would have to be increased for the Allies.

If you check the annals of artillery's use in WW2, you'll find the USA had a very effective contingent.

It wasn't known as the "queen of the battlefield" for nothing.

[arado234]

One of my dads good friends fought on the russian front from 1944 on.He experienced many times the "fun"of the katusyhas.He told me about it and i cant believe how anyone could survive such a devisating attack.He ended the war fighting in the streets of berlin(surrendered to the british).

[Liam]

Rockets must have found an edge the way they're deployed here, in mass

I played a game vs Rambo here employed 5-7 Russian Rockets but didn't have luck with tech and if I hadn't been dumb enough to give away Rome the game would've been lost for the Allies... It's more than likely with good LR capabilities, experience Rockets are unstoppable wonder weapons for the Axis also due to the fact that the Axis have great experienced air. It would require an aggressive counter to stop them, and a very mobile strategy since fixed positions are the set these days I could see that the morale boost-experience-Range of 5-6 Rockets would be able to unentrench and destroy a unit in any position without taking in return damage.. Very potent

For the USA or UK, why? They can barely build enough land units by '43-'44 to crush the Axis. The important thing is to have a solid 10 land units each for UK and USA by '43 to do D-Day preferably earlier... Plus 2 or 3 Fighters each... Now going Rocket instead of Bomber is kinda of waste since neither side is born with them and as said how many are in the build limit?

You get two free bombers so naturally you'll likely pursue LR and HB with Allies... Now the Russians can employ the strategy but without luck I was blowing them to bits with Rambo. 6 Rockets cost him the Eastern Front, he never counterattacked much vs me... When with 2 or 3 formidable heavy tanks he could've probably hurt me or 2 or 3 upgraded fighters prevented my constant hammer of his forces. Luckily though he had great fortifications and a lot of Units. so it wasn't a great blunder just minor one...

I'll take 6 LR Fighters over Rockets!!! If those Fighters are also Level 3 and have 4 bars of exp.

[Jollyguy]

I think against anyone else an Axis rocket strategy would have a chance of being countered by the Allies, but against Terif it might be unbalancing, similar to the carrier in port bug of SC 1.

There is a chance though that only allowing the Axis side the advantage of fully deploying four LR rockets is unbalancing in of itself. Liam is right, as it would take a highly mobile response from the Russians to counter, and the Allied mpp advantage doesn't gain traction until the mid-game.

As I see it the Russians would have to keep falling back, probably to the Urals, conserving as many units as possible, then try to rush and overwhelm the Axis with motorized 2 and LR air fighters. The first wave of Russian attackers probably wouldn't be motorized, the cannon fodder so to speak, with the second wave of motorized units hopefully able to pour through holes in the line. That might work, as the Russians can build scads of Armies. At the same time the Allies would land a massive force out West.

But on balance the theme of SC 2 is to offer balance. With that in mind it doesn't seem balance to limit the US to one sub while the Axis can have six, and the US and England to one rocket each while the Axis can have four.

Bob

[Terif]

Just ask Rambo if rockets can be countered... - he uses them in every game now against me .

As Liam already stated: rockets are pretty expensive and if you buy ground or air units instead, you get a much better cost-benefit ratio . Rockets are only fun to play with, but most other strategies are certainly superior compared to using them - so from a balancing point of view there has to be no concern.

If my Axis had bought ground units with these around 2000 mpps invested into rockets instead, they would certainly already be in the Urals .

[Jollyguy]

Well, in that case I stand corrected.

Bob

[Terif]

And the AAR continues :

During spring 1943 and the first summer turns till now june 43, Germany occupies Caucasus with its oil and Stalingrad as well as stop the allied convois to Archangel by conquering the city.

German HQ sent its rockets to destroy the fortresses behind Don river and around Stalingrad one after the other from the distance - surgical strikes and a pretty unbloody advance, lots of german lives spared this way .

But russians also avoid the fight and retreat further and further...so they are now finally gathered in the Urals to continue the struggle from the mountains - several dozen units must now be jammed together there...

Meanwhile it is quiet in the west except for the daily bombing runs against french and german ressources. But invasion is expected soon, so Rommel gets some reinforcements to prepare and man the fortification line between Bordeaux and Kopenhagen...

[Terif]

Finally in June/July 1943 Allies invade Normandy, liberating Brest and a few turns later Bordeaux. Heavy battles and a huge blood toll are necessary to take out 3 of the german fortifications...and Allies need their last ounces of strength to conquer these positions...

In August 1943 German armies and tanks reach the outskirts of the Ural mountains, destroying the first red army under intense airbattles with the 3 russian AFs stationed east of the mountain chain.

When Bock operates with another dozen german ground units to France, Western Allies start a last desperate attack against him and his staff personally: US Paras land next to Bock and together with most of the 12 allied air units (8 land based + 4 carriers) - flying nonstop attacks - they finally manage to destroy Bock HQ southeast of Paris

...but at the cost of the entire allied power in France since this way without airsupport for their ground troops, Allies were only able to do some little scratches to the german fortifications in central and southern France and axis forces could prepare their offensive without much interruption.

So in the first week of August, 15 german corps, armies and tanks - supported by Manstein and Rommel - leave their trenches for the last huge offensive in the west to hunt down all invaders:

With 4 allied armies the core of the invasion forces gets destroyed, as well as Para and corps. 2nd Para near Bordeaux (shoot to str 2) will also not escape and the city fall next turn back to Axis. Brest should be next in around 2 turns...3 german tanks and corps only three tiles away and heading full spead to the city, hoping to prevent an escape of the allied survivors south of Brest .

[ April 01, 2007, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Jollyguy]

Yes, bloody, but the Allies in the West do better than expected. What I did is sacrafice my American paratrooper to help take out the recently operated in German HQ, in a combined para/fighter attack. Yes, the Germans recently took out several US and British units, but at the cost of three Wehrmacht corps and a tank in return. The Allies are not as weak out West as Terif would portray, as once the Germans leave their fortifications they are easy pickings for the combined 11 Allied units air/carrier units in Theatre (one US carrier has been hitting the Oslo mine.)

Meanwhile, the Russians are pressed with their back against the wall in the Urals. I think the outcome of the war will come in the next handful of turns.

Bob

[Terif]

Bloody indeed ...last allied defenders around Bordeaux destroyed, city reconquered. Only Brest and 8 tiles around it still belong to Allies in France .

In the Urals russian blood also colours the scenery red...army and 2 corps removed, airfleet survives a Paratrooper attack at str 1 - Chelyabinsk, the second last russian city is now under siege from both east and west...

[Terif]

End of August 1943: Big clash in Russia

Last huge russian offensive from the northeast against axis held city of Kazan that is conquered for one turn by russian paratroopers. German army and para get lost, airfleet near Kazan barely survives at str 2 when attacked by russian tanks and corps.

German forces from Kuybyshev-Chelyabinsk rush to the rescue, retaking Kazan and destroying 2 russian airfleets, both paratroopers, tanks, armies and several corps...a real bloodbath

[Jollyguy]

Well, I'm calling this one, another Terif victory. Thought I had a chance here, but I'll have to chalk it up to experience. Learned a lot, learned a few different techniques, some only flashy, some with long term potential. But on balance I'm still moving up the learning curve.

Anyway, another good game, lots of clashes all oover the place. Could have kept this going awhile longer, but I'm not much for playing when iit's obvous the end is near. Tried to have the Russians research motorized two and long range air, but only got motorized two late and never a long range air advance.

So an elusive win against Terif remains...elusive!

Bob

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Is it everyone' opinion that the Axis are tougher in

these HTH games from 42 on than they were in real

life? I know Blashy would agree that they are. I

guess I try to imagine the real Wehrmacht doing the

things that I see Yoda doing, and I just can't buy

it that the Germans would be capable of such things.

Perhaps supply for them isn't as bad as it should be

the deeper into Russia they go, perhaps they don't

suffer the manpower losses they should (since that

only happens in the game when a poorly-supplied unit

dies).

I think in SC3 there should be a manpower reserve

which drops each time a unit takes damage. I'd

just think that by the time the Jerries reach the

Urals their lines would be very thin AND the troops

poorly supplied. ButwhatthehelldoIknow.