Surrender or fight to the end?

[Timskorn]

What do most people here do in a losing situation?

I know in competitive gaming a veteran player pretty much knows when their odds of "winning" is zero to none. This just comes from playing a game endlessly and just knowing when that turning point has occurred.

From what I gather, it seems most players here play until they acknowledge that situation and then call it a day. It can make sense for a number of reasons, namely people usually don't enjoy wasting time playing dozens of more turns of a game they'll never "win", and because the win conditions of SC2 revolves around capital grabbing. Which typically means the side that accomplishes this knows it's going to happen well in advance.

The topic for "win conditions" is another subject altogether so what I'm wondering is, if you surrender early, what general circumstances (For Axis and Allies) do you decide to make that call?

I'm currently in a game in Spring of '45 as the Axis. There is no way for me to win at this point. I've got a solid defensive line with crack air support in the west, and a crumbling shamble of an army in the east. Romania has surrendered, but Axis forces are reforming the lines there to defend. North, German forces are reforming a defensive line in eastern Poland.

Since it is late in the war, I find a new challenge in losing as the Axis: properly deploy defensive lines and find opportunities to counter-attack whenever possible to stall Allied advances. On the flip side, would most of you still enjoy playing the game as the Allies? Or with victory assured, wish to move on?

[SeaMonkey]

There's always something to be learned in a losing situation.

As you have referred to you can entertain certain deployment configurations that you normally may not try.

Its a period of experimentation and still I can extract a degree of enjoyment.

Besides, this is what I would do in real life.

Its a fight to the death!

I want to witness the victory, or in this case the vanquished screen.

[Guest Mike]

In something like a PBEM game I'll happily give in when I've got no way out.

Face-to-face with toy soldiers over the tabletop I'll rally all my troops, raise the dead and put a spiked collar on my Chihuiahuia to fight to the end.....'cos I've usually got nothing better to do that afternoon

[Timskorn]

I'm more interested in HvH games. Is there, dare I say, etiquette when losing? Some people may get upset that you quit "early", and others may get bored/irritated to continue playing a game they'll surely win.

So quit when you're "done", or try to fight it out for as long as possible (or, at least, until the game end-date which is what, 1946? 1947?).

Then that begs the other question, if you're clearly losing, yet take your opponent to the games end date and you get a minor victory...who really is considered the winner?

[Terif]

In HvH games it´s best to just ask your opponent how he prefers it since it differs from player to player .

You can clarify it before the game or can give him the choice when you see the war is over. Both fighting till the end and giving up when the war is virtually over has it´s pluses.

At least your first games you better fight till the end. First since often you still can win when you already think it is over and even more cause you also need to learn how to defend in SC2.

And fighting against far superior enemy forces is the best way to do that . If you manage to put up a good defence when the enemy is attacking you with overwhelming numbers, then you have much much better chances to win the next war - only with attacking you can´t win a war (at least not against an able opponent), you also need to know when, where and how to defend...best opportunity to learn it is in an already hopeless situation as there you have no choice but to manage the ressources and forces you have left efficiently to inflict as much damage as possible to the enemy.

Furthermore in SC2 there are lots of possibilities and opportunities to turn around a game already believed lost. Usually you can still win till nearly to the end if you adapt to the enemy and now use the proper strategy - only if you have no task force able to fight left or your capitals are gone, you can be sure to have lost. In all other cases there is still hope - but you will never know if you give up too soon .

P.S.: At the end of the game you can have either a draw or one side has won the war. Minor as well as of course major victory at the end date is a victory i.e. you have won the game. So even if your empire may be crumbling, you can still achieve a victory if you have left over enough of your land when the final accounting is done - another reason not to give up too soon .

[ July 09, 2007, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Hehe, I'm on both sides of the coin on this issue. Matter of fact, I know the game Tim is talking about...Just sent him my Allied Spring '45 turn with the Balklans being taken over, Warsaw getting pressed....and a flood of Reds pouring thru. Meanwhile his crack troops are in the Siegford line w/ the experienced LF in the Fatherland parrying my air. Northern Italy mountains hosts his SS ground units.

Far as surrender or not. Personally, when I'm winning, I could give two craps whether my opponent surrenders or not.

1) If he surrenders, I win...chalk up a win & lets start another.

2) If he doesn't surrender, I will enjoy pounding, enslaving, and smacking him

Now, if I'm getting my ass handed to me, I surrender if no chance of winning, what's the point? Rather chalk the loss, and play again.

The key is to know "what is a chance" of winning really mean? Against the average Joe it's one thing, against Yodl, it's another.

[jon_j_rambo]

Like Yodl says, it also comes down to your opponent. I like to be respectful of their wishes in order to play more game against them. So guys like to play to the end, no problem...but bores me.

I'm sure I've pissed off a few people surrendering early, but bottom line...I always post my losses.

[Timskorn]

Good points Terif.

For me if I've made a bonehead move as the Axis early on and in '42 I'm getting rammed down the throat with Reds already and have no chance of winning, I'd prefer surrender. If, like in my game with JJR, my downfall really becomes apparent in '44, I'd like to try and stick it out and at least try for the minor victory.

I'd rather not bore anyone to death either. If it's a tourny game then I wouldn't care, I'd go for the win any way I can get it, even if it means ending the game with my last three units around Berlin.

[Lars]

I'll play it out if I've got a shot at a draw. Don't need to win as long as you lose too.

But when it's over, it's over. You can usually tell.

[Miech]

I usually play pretty far, until I see there is no chance. Others may think there is a chance, or that I should stop earlier, but I'd rather use my time to start a nice fresh game with new insights.

[targul]

I will play to the end if the opponent desires it. I always offer to start a new game if the other player is losing badly. Surrenders in real life are not always last man standing and they should not be in games.

Game should immediately cease if one side or the other is no longer having fun. Whole objective is to have fun. So first rule in all these games is if you are no longer having fun the opponent should happily let you out of the game.

[Liam]

Generally the reason why someone like Terif Rambo or many others including myself would say do not quit!!! I'll give you a very playful scenario I'm playing this guy Taojah, who is not as good as me but he's a good player for most... I have him where I want him, Axis are about to Clamchoweder Allies into Oblivion... and I am going to do it with ease, suddenly 2 Paras drop on my unprotected German Capitols and "game over"

I've had this happen more than once!

[Lars]

Originally posted by targul:

Game should immediately cease if one side or the other is no longer having fun. Whole objective is to have fun. So first rule in all these games is if you are no longer having fun the opponent should happily let you out of the game.

Well, there is an obligation to let your opponent have his fun. Let's face it, it's fun to "clamchoweder" someone after putting that kind of time into setting it up.

So stick around for that last two turns of banzi attack with what you've got left. Heck, you might even have fun.

[Canuck_TAR]

If its hopeless then I'll throw in the towel.

[jon_j_rambo]

Sure, if somebody wants to grind out, I'm game!

[Timskorn]

Good to hear it then JJR, I plan to grind out a minor victory!

[jon_j_rambo]

Sounds good Tim, lets grind it out! Send the turn, I'm sending the kitchen sink. Yeah, you got my Yanks & Brits staled at the Rhine in the hills of Italians...but the East is wide open.

I will admit, you pulled off that minor victory thing with me before, by stealing Rome on the last turn! My hat is off to you for that, you are a strong opponenet.

I enjoy our games, lets rock!

[Timskorn]

Once I get home late, late tonight I'll let'er rip. I'm hoping I have one last, strong offensive to throw at you soon. Nothing like going out in a bang!