US Starting forces, leaders, & cash, what's the deal?

[Comrade Trapp]

Ok Rambo, how strong would you make the U.S. Atlantic Fleet?

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Comrade Trapp:

Ok Rambo, how strong would you make the U.S. Atlantic Fleet?

Too strong

[Liam]

The US Fleet and armament was strong after...... she realized she needed them. The Pearl Fleet was rather Large!!! Just because Japanese were a threat Germany was not percieved this was in 1939 not till later. US MPPs will or should go up. And btw: Canada at one point had a larger navy than Germany so that is never well represented it's just this in all honesty the Supply system, actual US production cannot be truly scaled for a Euro Theatre, too theatening to game balance

but if there is any need of a bid it would certianly do away with it no?

US had Subs, Carriers, Battleships, Panama Canal and the ability to alternate sea zones... she has an awesome navy, airforce and though not mobilized by '42 was kicking Germany's rear and by '43 if not for Mountains may have conqoured all of Italy.

her bombers should at least be represented and large convoy escort navy!!!!!!! MP as well if pulled on and ability to tech up!!!!

as Germany's bombers should be too, he'111s though whimpish were in vast #s and up until England and USA ruled Europe the first portion of WW2 though never represented all the way up till '41

[Edwin P.]

US production could be better scaled to reality, if a the Pacific front was added.

I wonder if this is possible:

Add a pacific map, seperated by impassible terrain from the European theature and use transfer tiles to move forces from one section to the other (Europe vs Pacific), with a suitable time lag.

With Europe to the Eastern coast of the US covering 120 tiles, the Pacific theater could cover 130 tiles given Sc2 limits of 256 titles wide - ie US West Coast to China. The only problem is a lack of country names for major and minor countries - Japan (major), China (major), Australia (minor), French Vietnam (minor), Malaysia (minor), Dutch Indonesia Minor).

The islands would be unrealisticlly large, but overall it might be a good simulation.

[Blashy]

USA makes the same amount of MPPs as in SC. BUT, MPPs are reduced significantly overall.

IMHO, if you were to compare to SC, I would say USA is making double what it is in SC.

And being able to prepare your forces to your liking since the start of the game is another bonus.

Right now in the AAR I'm posting, USA would be in D-Day mode but fall and winter will delay this until spring of 43. 1 year faster than historical.

[JerseyJohn]

D-Day could, historically, have been launched in 1943 if the U. S. would have passed on Italy. It was decided against doing this because Germany was still too strong and the U. S. buildup in Europe wasn't high enough.

The wisdom of doing things that way is highly debatable. The Italian Campaign tied up a lot of troops from both sides, so that's a push. It had the bonus of actually knocking Italy out of the war and gave the U. S. some good air and naval bases in Europe itself. Also, having driven the Axis out of North Africa and taken Sicily, the next step in all the UK plans was the taking of Italy. Churchill was still going on about driving north through Europe's Soft Underbelly -- meaning the Appenines and Alps!

[Liam]

I think the USAs ability to prepare fully for War in some fashion as well as the USSRs represents a more realistic viewpoint on things. Giving the Allies more flexability vs their Axis foes. It's no hidden secret none of these countries really trusted each other. The relationship between the USA and USSR was only binded by Germany.

Imagine that the USSR built over 50 thousand T34s talk about USA production. I think we weren't quite up to that sort of war production. On the other hand, the Russians were a bit ill motivated at first, lost a lot men in the purges and millions in the first assault from Germany effectively cleaning them up. How they pulled of Stalingrad is a miracle and how they kept pulling on hidden resources is also a miracle. Producing more IL2s than any other nation during the war. The Germans realized that they were way outclassed in production and that the Goods the Reds had were actually better on the ground in the tank category...and caught up in the Air category...and their other weapondry befitted their terrain..

All and all, you can't discount that The Reds were the main kickbutt nation of WW2... If Germany lost millions likely 75% was on the Eastern Front if not more... likely more in the 85% range...

The USA and British were primarily focused on cleaning up action. France was beaten after the initial breakouts and the Nazis realized they couldn't hold. Any desperate German offensives were stalled and cut off and pulled of as desperate actions not as actual real possibilities to win the war.

Italy falling down seems like a sideshow. They were if anything more a thorn in Hitler's side. I think that Germany was beaten by '43 and by '44 the doom was felt everywhere. The Reds showed they could beat them in Summer. The Americans and British were opening fronts everywhere. D-Day was eminant.. '43 is not too soon for D-Day but the primary conflict should be the Eastern Front with the Western Allies pushing to sapp German resources and eventually occuppy the Richness of Italy-France, etc... or anywhere else she can get her hands on...politically if this was structured after a true ambitious USSR and USA/UK the struggle would be to liberate the Rich sectors of Western Europe and take out the Wealth of Western Germany and let the Germans delay the Reds and leave the meager Balkans to them.

[Kuniworth]

Liam good points about the Soviet union beeing the kick butt nation of ww2. Speaking of tanks particulary John Ellis states that the russians produced over 100,000 tanks and self-propelled guns 1941-45 while the US figure is 88,000.

[ November 12, 2005, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[JerseyJohn]

Undeniably true.

Lendlease, in the case of the USSR, was mainly to provide trucks and radios, essential items that freed the Soviets to manufacture their own weapons. We also sent every other kind of item, but I don't know how much use American made tanks and aircraft would have been to the Soviets. Most people know about the Murmansk convoys, but aid was also delivered through Iran and across the Bering Straights from Alaska -- a huge highway was built across Canada specifically for this purpose.

Before anyone gets on the bandwagon about other countries fighting the war, sure, that's true, but from June 41 till the end, the bulk of the German Army and Air Force was fighting the Russians. I think it was something like an average of 75%.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

D-Day could, historically, have been launched in 1943 if the U. S. would have passed on Italy.

That is a definite possibility in SC2. It's basically your choice, go after France, Norway?, Italy, Vichy? .

I've done D-Day in summer of 43 a few times.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Blashy --- USA has the same MMPs as SC-1? Yet can do double the production? I must have missed math class that day.

Hopefully the USA will have enough resources to build a tank in SC-2. This is crap, 180 MMPs!!! Russia gets 480 MMPs! Italy gets 125 MMPs & three times the navy. This doesn't even take in account the sorry supply for the USA. How will the USA afford paratroops, ships, the Memphis Belle?

SC-1 was an insult to the United States. Save your MMPs for June 1944, you might be able to buy one army. Technology, the USA is so far behind too. It's a joke.

[Hubert Cater]

John, seriously, relax.

Each game is different and depends on what you research and the end results.

As stated, this is not SC1 and the economics work very differently. By default, and as Blashy mentions if the US is fully active with no adjustment to their Industrial Modifier they will colllect 180MPPs, but with R&D MPPs can go up to 324 MPP per turn for the US.

In fact this applies to all countries as they can affect their overall MPP income by investing in Industrial Technology which in turn affects their overall Industrial Modifier, i.e. their per turn MPP collection.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Hubert --- Okay, it must be like 3R production, that works for me. Thanks for clearing that up, Blashy just wasn't explaining it well.

"Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"

General George S. Patton - (addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord) - 5th June 1944

[Mr.Dozer]

russia has high mmp's because its mass amount of people and resources compared to usa. russia lost 26million.

germany made the jet me262, alot better than usa plane.

Britian at time had no debt and payed usa for ships, so Britian should have more than USA.

also usa had problems with making jets, thats why they stole them from Canada. The phantom is really the avro arrow.