Farewell

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni, ever get the feeling you were posting in a thread that was already locked?

Meanwhile ...

"That's Kaptain with a K and Karl with a K. Some shrink you are. You're inane!"

[Hueristic]

I have used my friends program and have found that KK is actually.

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JJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- this post dedicated to the late great JB. MHRIP

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Kuni, ever get the feeling you were posting in a thread that was already locked?

Ï call it the Ronnie Reagan feeling.

[JerseyJohn]

Huh?

Mr H, it's de ja vu all over again! :eek:

The day that happened, our dear departed friend wrote me an email. "Glad to meet you, John. Are we the same person? Do we look alike or something? Have you been hiding in my house?"

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni,

Poor Ronnie. I used to see him every once in a while on W 10th St in Manhattan when his father was president and he had a TV show. He was a ballet dancer or something. Never actually met him, though we said hello a couple of times. I think he was glad when nobody recognized him.

[Kuniworth]

Sorry meant the Ronald Reagan feeling, but me think your reply was kinda inane.

[jon_j_rambo]

Ah, only an intelligent man like Kuniworth would remember the famous,"Goodbye President Reagan" thread where it took several people to the rubber room to recover.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Ah, only an intelligent man like Kuniworth would remember the famous,"Goodbye President Reagan" thread where it took several people to the rubber room to recover.

Indeed and only an equally intelligent man would ever notice.

[JerseyJohn]

Or, it could be that none of the rest of us wanted to resurrect that abomination of a thread!

Anyway, when you said Ronnie Reagan, I thought you meant his son. He had a tv show in the early eighties but it might only have been shown in the New York City area. It was one of those things where he would respond to audience questions and the only things they ever asked about were what his father was doing or thinking or had told him about. So, after a while he had that sort of lost look and that's what that remark reminded me of.

[clabinskys]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

I really wonder if grognards have turned into little Goldilockses.

LOL,

Well I guess it depends on what you expect. I think WAW is a good "game", but a not a good "WWII game". Personally, I don't consider building and distributing supply points and having a path of sea areas with transports a good "simulation" of the logistical challenges, but rather a convenient solution to a complex problem. As far as I'm concerned, this game is not targeted for former 3R players or wargamers who would like a simulation of WWII, but rather kids or younger people who like to "play" simpler games like A&A and care less or nothing about the realism of the war.

AGW, ok, I used the wrong words, and I can see that the game could be good for PBEM play. That said, it's still doesn't have an intuitive game play and the scrolling mechanism is very poor. Considering the resources used to produce this game, you might not expect more than what it delivers, and I can understand that.

I manage software development and have been programming for over ten years; I would not have released AGW, but that might be because I'm picky about quality. The reason the scrolling is bad is because of the way the graphics engine is programmed, look at the image folder and you'll know. The map is nice, but it's possible to get almost the same quality with a tile rendering engine, heck I made a 1000x1000 hex map with 15 layers of terrain that contained >100000 randomly generated units using...java, and still had an fps of 28. If I can do it, Schwerpunkt can.

Regardless, they are both good products and I admire everyone involved in developing them. My point was that for someone who likes playing 3R, a rather complex strategic level WWII game, AGW and WAW might not be a good match.

[SeaMonkey]

Well clab, tell me, what would you consider a good simulation of the logistical model for a grand strategical game?

I consider the WaW model, so far, to be the best.

Give me an alternative to contemplate in comparison to what's been offered to the gaming world presently, I'm interested.

[pzgndr]

for someone who likes playing 3R

DesertDave and I plead GUILTY, your honor! One thing both Dave and I miss from 3R is that ebb and flow that took place. Force pool limits that restricted the Axis at their peak and an economic model that allowed the USA/USSR to rapidly expand their production helped create this effect. This was lacking in SC1, but we're working like beavers to try to make it happen in SC2. So far, it's looking good!! :cool:

[Kuniworth]

you guys should play Krieg! and totaler krieg! if you have not done so. Superb board games.

[clabinskys]

Originally posted by SeaMonkey:

Well clab, tell me, what would you consider a good simulation of the logistical model for a grand strategical game?

I consider the WaW model, so far, to be the best.

Not to drift too far away from the original subject, let me offer a farewell to the orginator of the thread before I comment on SeaMonkey.

SeaMonkey, good point. Of all the games available at this point, I can't come up with something that is better than WaW's logistical model. That said, I still think this is a definate area of improvement. However, as a developer you can't make the supply part of the game cumbersome, which is why most, if not all, available systems are somewhat unrealistic.

I guess, my issue with WaW is simply that it "feels" like a game more than a wargame. It doesn't challenge me with pincer movements and historically accurate units. Still, as a game, it is good game, but I doubt it'll go down in the grognard history books as a great "wargame".

I'll let you know if I can come up with a game that handles logistics in a way more to my liking.

Anyway, this thread is ripe for destruction and I might just have killed it.

[hurtzDonut]

Damn, Karl certainly did stir up a hornets nest!!

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by hurtzDonut:

Damn, Karl certainly did stir up a hornets nest!!

With a really, REALLY short stick.

Sure,

Littler even, than a toothpick.

Innately brazen K:

you guys should play Krieg! and totaler krieg! if you have not done so. Superb board games.

Have done so, and, I'd agree - deft design and a "good to look at" map.

I like the idea of having hex SIDES being a hindrance instead of the whole hex.

Allows for more flexibility as you maneuver in and within mountain ranges, for instance, IE, you can follow the ridge line and not attack/cross over.

As originally posted by clabinskys:

I guess, my issue with WaW is simply that it "feels" like a game more than a wargame.

Couldn't agree more.

THAT is one laden-down logistic. :eek:

Less like the Red Ball Express,

And more like floods of "supply slugs"

Nudging blocks of granite around.

I MIGHT buy this one when it hits

The remainder bin, BUT

ONLY if it is less than... $3 dollars.

Mr Bill:

One thing both Dave and I miss from 3R is that ebb and flow that took place. Force pool limits that restricted the Axis at their peak and an economic model that allowed the USA/USSR to rapidly expand their production helped create this effect. This was lacking in SC1, but we're working like beavers to try to make it happen in SC2. So far, it's looking good!!

Should happen, I agree.

(... that's 3 agrees in one post, I am

getting too mellow, ah, it's the New Year nostalgia fugue, and like JJ, I've seen too many more than a few)

**I would recommend John Prados' Third Reich to all those serious WW-2 GS game players out there.

Not "card-driven" like so many of the new Euro issues, but partly... "chit-draw" driven.

For example, every 3-month turn

You draw a new chit, and these can be some political, economic or military "special event" that MUST be acted on.

For example, there is one that REQUIRES the British player (... Churchill interferes, again!) to re-enact some foolish and hastily conceived intervention, such as - opposing huge Pz IV armees with several regiments only outfit with a couple of 2-pounders, in mountains of Greece).

And, there are optional "pre-game" events to roll the dice for (... that's one thing I REALLY miss these mod days - rolling out them bones!), as for instance:

"Austria resists Hitler's demands and remains neutral."

They get some armor & armies and the GErman player can either TRY to convince them to come to their senses through diplomacy, OR... impatiently invade and waste resources in order to conquer.

Of course, this takes equivalent number of GErman units out of their own force pool.

And, there is the Z-plan, which I always like to get.

So much so, that I sometimes, I admit, roll the dice again. And again!

[Edwin P.]

And, there are optional "pre-game" events to roll the dice for (... that's one thing I REALLY miss these mod days - rolling out them bones!), as for instance:

Optional pre-game events would be an interesting "optional" (aka FOW, War in Siberia, Show Hexes) feature for SC2 that would vary the standard campaign game.

In fact, as Desert Dave mentioned above the Totaler Kreig site has rules that randomly recreate various outcomes of the 1914-1939 pre-war years.

Totaler Kreig Living Random Campaign Campaign

Example:

Spanish Upheaval

Political Climate Table

1. Communist Spain: Apply Communist Spain.

2. Unaligned Communist Spain: Spain begins as a neutral minor country with Neutrality. Spain can be activated as a Soviet Allied minor (an exception to 12.2.3)

3. Socialist Spain: No effect.

4. Fascist Spain: No effect.

5. Viva la Republica! Spain is a democracy. Spain begins as a neutral minor country with Neutrality.

6. Spanish democracy unites with West: Spain begins as a democratic, Western Allied minor country.

World War I Outcome

1. Czarist Russia survives, emerges triumphant; Central Powers completely collapse from within in 1918: Roll on the Russian Empire, German Revolution, and WWI Western Allied Might Tables.

2. Czarist Russia shaken but still intact;

Germany is forced to accept an unconditional surrender in 1918: Roll on the Russian Empire (-1 drm) and Treaty of Versailles (-1 drm) Tables.

3. Russia collapses, exhausted, in 1918; Germany surrenders conditionally in 1919:

Roll on the Russian Civil War (+1 drm)

and Treaty of Versailles Tables.

4. Russia collapses from revolution in 1917; Germany accepts an armistice in 1918 but has no seat at the bargaining table when peace is negotiated: Roll on the Russian Civil War and Treaty of Versailles Tables.

5. Russia collapses from revolution in 1917; Germany accepts an armistice in 1919, earning a seat at the bargaining table: Roll on the Russian Civil War and Treaty of Versailles (+1 drm) Tables.

6. Russia collapses quickly from revolution in 1916; Germany succeeds in propping up her allies long enough for the Kaiserschlacht battles to succeed in winning the war in the West in 1917: Roll on the Russian Civil War (-1 drm) and Victorious Central Powers Tables.

Russian Civil War Table

1. Swift Communist victory; Independents crushed:

Apply Soviet Empire and Soviet Union (+1 drm).

2. Sure Communist victory; Poland and Finland fight indecisive wars and end up negotiating for their independence: Apply Eastern Poland, Finnish Frontier, Russian Baltic States, and Soviet Union.

3. Bloody Communist victory; Western independents triumphant and jubilant: Apply Soviet Union.

4. Bloody Communist victory; Western independents triumphant; affects of foreign destabilization felt as Russia's numerous nationalities continue to agitate for independence: Apply Soviet Union (-1 drm).

5. Protracted struggle sees new independent nations emerge: The Axis player may apply one of Ukraine, Caucuses, or Siberia; roll again.

6. Bloody White Victory: Apply Constitutional Czar.

Czarist Russia

The new, beloved Czar modernizes Russia’s industrial base (profiting the Boyars) while maintaining his good relations with the peasant farmers. Grand royal palaces are built in Petrograd and Moscow as symbols of Romanov majesty. Order is still kept by the Czar’s loyal Cossacks and the Russian army remains a firm pillar of society.

Setup Changes:

• Replace the following Option cards: Stalin Challenges Germany with Czar Challenges Germany; Comintern with Russian Diplomacy; Soviet Ultimatum with Russian Ultimatum; and Stalin Line with Romanov Line.

• Remove the following from the game: Axis Anti-Comintern Pact Option card, and the Manchurian Settlement card.

• Apply No Russian Army Purges.

This site also offers good ideas for modder created scenarios:

The Red Menace scenario postulates a whole new "what if?" World War II situation. In this scenario, Germany is minor country (albeit a pretty strong one) still hampered by the Treaty of Versailles. The Soviet Union has decided the march of Communism must move westward and only the foxy Western Allied player is there to try to check Stalinist moves. It's East versus West from 1939 on in this ideological duel.

The World War One Rematch is another "what if?" campaign game postulating a Central Powers victory in The Great War (World War One) and lining up those countries again for a rematch in World War Two. France is spoiling for revenge against the Kaiser's Reich, while Austria-Hungary and Turkey have grown even as their empires continue to rot.

[ December 31, 2005, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[SeaMonkey]

Great points DD and Edwin. Imagine the replay value of pregame events or the fact of certain scripts that compel the player to execute some form of action(political, military, research, or a build) with a consequence for not fulfilling the parameters.

Well Bill and Dave, what's the verdict, will SC2 have the possibility to incorporate such a feature?

And clab, keep your eye out on CotA, as a logistical model of some significance has been added to the Panther engine.

Although this gamescale(Panther's) is grand tactical/operational, it may catalyze some ideas for GS applications.

[JerseyJohn]

Dave and Edwin,

I agree with SeaMonkey, some great ideas here.

But that brings up an interesting question, why are they here and not in a different thread where people can read them without having to shoo their way through two pages of angry hornets?

[Retributar]

I too agree with SeaMonkey!...some great ideas here!!!.

I really do hope that SC2 can incorporate some of the excellent ideas/suggestions given here throughout this forum!. I realize that more may be on the plate than can be digested...if so, then maybe a patch or two or Mod or two can alleviate this situation!.

[pzgndr]

Well Bill and Dave, what's the verdict, will SC2 have the possibility to incorporate such a feature?

Yes and no. No, in that Hubert probably will not code a feature to randomly select certain events. There are a lot of events! But yes, in that players can toggle certain events on/off at game start up from the menu screen. I can envision mods where additional events are provided which would be like the old variant chits in Third Reich, and players can randomly select those themselves. Not quite the surprise during the game when something happens, but it is an option.

[SeaMonkey]

Greatly appreciated Bill.

It seems one of the truly lacking occurrences of simulations is the ability to interject that unknown parameter, the intangibles that are so prevalent in real life.

We players, having the benefit of hindsight in historical simulations, usually depend on our human opponents to provide that stimuli.

Unfortunately, circumstances of gameplay, familiarity with the AI, usually present a somewhat predictable sequence of events, even when all sides are represented by humans.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, its just the reality of the situation and it usually promotes a player in dire consequences to lose interest in continuing the simulation.

What I'm looking for is a feature that parallels that undying human characteristic of hope. No matter how bad it gets, there is always the possibility, however remote, that a light exists at the end of the tunnel.

Here's where that random event(s) come into the equation, unknown by either side, not necessarily changing the game, but providing for "that light".

[Edwin P.]

SeaMonkey, I could not have said it better.

[Yogi]

Well back to the Kaptain Karl farewell - so that people can be critical of him or me again.

I use to participate in these forums quite a bit and watched for the release of SC2 as well. My interest in Battlefront all started with SC, but also quite a bit in the general and now defunct political discussion forums.

My last posting I think was back in about November of 2004. Now looking at the SC2 in January 2006, nothing has changed. I'm all for not putting out a game until it is ready. In fact a recent purchase of Civ IV is a great example of a game that never should have been released because of too many bugs and crashes.

Still, I think the ball was dropped on the suggested release of SC2. I remember expecting it early in 2004 and then by Christmas in 2004 and now it is past Christmas in 2005 and into 2006 and we are still waiting.

One more defense of the original post to this thread. He has a point, most every thread ends up unrecognizable after a few posts by all the banter. I guess we can argue what inane is, but it would be nice to keep things on topic and save your bantor, insults, questionable humor and unrelated opinion for a special general discussion thread reserved for that purpose.

Actually if I were Battlefront, it would be a concern that potential customers get turned off by long waits, unkept promises and/or non-respect for their opinions.

[ January 03, 2006, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Yogi ]

[Edwin P.]

1. Software release dates always slip. I have seen it happen at large companies and small ones.

2. I admire BF and HC for not releasing the game until its ready.

3. It would have been nice if Battlefront released a "simple" update to the Expert level AI for SC1 in Christmas 2004 after finding out about the delayed release.

This could have been as simple as a 20% (1 in 5 games) chance for Turkey & Iraq and/or Spain to join the AI side at Expert level. Or perhaps a 20% for the AI to receive 4 bonus tech chits and/or 4 Bombers Level and/or 4 bonus Air Fleets. Or a 20% that the USA gets a random bonus (if Allied AI) or penalty (if Axis AI) to their war readiness or reinforcing the UK forces and fleet in Egypt.

[ January 03, 2006, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]