Weather - Any Comments

[Edwin P.]

Any comments on the effect of weather?

frozen/snow/mud/sand terrain as well as separate dynamic winter and desert 3-D unit graphics

Any storms in the North Atlantic that might affect an invasion of Norway?

[ April 17, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[willebra]

Edwin P.

remember that a turn lasts always for several days and even several weeks (in SC1 the minimum is one/two weeks).

In a tactical game, you could be prevented for hours and even for days to perform some operations due to wheather conditions etc.

In SC, (which is a high abstraction strategy game) I wouldn't like rules that belong to tactical games: there would very seldom be such weather that it would prevent all operations for one month or even for one week.

Also the geographical scale affects this, e.g. the size of the sea between Britain and Norway: even if the northern parts of the sea are really stormy the whather in the southern parts could allow operations. Really long and continuous bad wheather could have some impact on e.g. "landing casualties", as the case is in SC1.

[KDG]

Any comments on the effect of weather?

Yes, it was raining very hard here in Southern California, causeing an accident that blocked the 60 fwy for hours.

In SC, (which is a high abstraction strategy game) I wouldn't like rules that belong to tactical games: there would very seldom be such weather that it would prevent all operations for one month or even for one week.

I would imagine that a very bad winter could last a month, having some type of effect on operations, don't you?

[pzgndr]

Rough idea is to have different weather zones for the map. Weather would be clear, rain/mud, or snow/frozen.

Bad weather would affect movement, readiness, air attacks, etc. No amphibious assaults during bad weather. Subtle changes for the most part, nothing too drastic.

[Edwin P.]

Thanks for the update, its simple and effective.

Now I have to time my invasion of Norway to avoid bad weather. Perhaps a good reason to focus more effort in the Med where the weather is for the most part clear and sunny.

At least bad winter storms will not affect the range or spotting distance of air units.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Edwin P.

Now I have to time my invasion of Norway to avoid bad weather.

Not only that, but this new weather feature is going to upset many of those previous well-laid plans... for instance, all those quick knock-out blows delivered to the Low Countries.

Not to say that now as Axis player you can't rush armor and air fleets over to the Western border of Germany and still TRY to annihilate Benelux (... the new geographic term for the two combined countries of Netherlands and Belgium) in the first couple of turns.

It IS to say that the price to be paid will be higher. And the slogging-through will be slower. Who knows, those un-skirted Pz IIs and IIIs might even... get bogged down?

Given that poor or bad weather WILL effect combat target data, and Air Ops and movement of ground units, it is going to be tougher to re-enact some of those "gamey" expeditions... IMO, hooray!

There WAS a reason, several actually... for the historical Sitzkrieg.

Those mud and snow months of November, December, January, February and March and maybe even April (... depending on the whims of Mother Nature, and/or the fickle AI) could prevent some of those anxious and ahistorical "gambits" we always used to see.

The previous weather, in each specific Zone, will help determine the NEXT turn's weather. It is a dynamic process, and the new influencing factors affect the old and prevailing situation, and therefore you have to keep in mind what the conditions HAVE been, to have some success in predicting... what they MIGHT be.

(... yep, Russia could come to be an icy, wicked winter nightmare! for unsuspecting Axis players :eek: )

Which is good. Very good. :cool:

World War 2 was not fought on a table-top environment kept artificially clean and winter-wind free. At least not then.

NOW! You are just going to have to adjust your grand strategies, and particular tactics to the weather conditions.

Which only seems... natural.

[Ron]

I agree weather as described by DD will have a profound effect on operations, not only in Russia by the sounds of it. This in addition to all the other changes and additions has got me wondering about the flow of operations and turn length of the game.

Will the turns be the same as SC1? Will operations now follow a roughly historical time frame? For example in SC1, even without weather, the German invasion of France could get bogged down until as late as July, and rarely does the German get an 'historical' result against the French unless the Allied player makes grevious mistakes.

Ron

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Ron:

Will operations now follow a roughly historical time frame? For example in SC1, even without weather, the German invasion of France could get bogged down until as late as July

The weather schematic as I have just described it is... complimentary, and not intrusive or definitive.

The historical conquest of France happened in GOOD May-June weather of 1940.

Can that happen the same way here?

Maybe.

Play testing will determine very much, and you can be convinced and satisfied that all aspects and features, proposed or surely implemented will be tested thoroughly and to within an inch of their life.

I for one am VERY glad that weather will at least be a factor that must be considered when planning conquest campaigns.

But, it is merely one factor among very many. :cool:

[Bill101]

I see two options unfolding here (though it might be a bit boring to work out and program in the historical one):

1) Historical weather.

2) Random weather, as described above by DD.

I'm not fussed if it is all random, but if it is easy then it would be nice to have a historical weather setting too.

Also, will it be possible to have winter equipment to lessen the effect of the Russian winter? Or am I taking things a bit too far?

[ April 18, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[Edwin P.]

This weather effect gets better and better. Now the Russians can hold off the German onslaught a bit longer and that Axis air power will be much weakened during bad weather. Perhaps, making Corps and Amor units more valuable.

I would assume that the weather would affect the readiness of units in the field more than those stationed in cities? Perheps, even the northern Baltic might freeze over, allowing units to cross the ice to Sweden or Finland, of course if a unit is on the ice when the weather changes and the ice breaks up ...... the unit is lost.

[JerseyJohn]

DD

Good news indeed -- in the actual war Hitler issued orders to enter the Low Countries several times and had to immediately cancel them because the weather unexpectedly turned bad.

In Russia I hope the weather settles in realistically from north to south with an earlier and more severe winter in areas nearer the Artic Circle. At this point I know nothing at all about the weather system and am only guessing but the specific zone idea sounds like it was created to simulate that effect.

[Edwin P.]

Oh, and don't forget a few (1 - 2) randomly placed ocean tiles with iceburgs during the winter in the artic circle weather zone. Its not much but it adds to the flavor of the game.

[ April 18, 2004, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[KDG]

Since a square is 50 miles, how big would that iceberg be, the size of a period .

[Desert Dave]

All right, you don't like the weather hanging there in your area?

EDIT it.

There are likely to be 4 Zones on the default map.

1) Arctic

2) North Afrika

3) Mediterranean

4) Eastern (ie, in Russia)

For each zone you have the 4 seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter.

Which CAN be finely edited for (... as in % chance of occurence):

1) Clear

2) Mud

3) Snow

There are also "Secondary Weather Effects" which CAN be edited for:

1) Clear

2) Overcast

3) Storms

In fact, the WHOLE land map can be edited. :cool:

So, if you don't care for, or agree with the DEFAULT map,

Then, you can edit it... tile... by... tile.

And if that is not quite enough for you, then:

You can edit your own Zones.

Want to add a small zone, with unique ratings for both primary and secondary effects, say, for land tiles in and surrounding Bogart's Casablanca?

Do it.

[Desert Dave]

Oooops :eek:

Actually there are 5 zones.

"Default" is all the rest, ie, Western Europe mostly.

Surprised nobody caught that.

Well, that's it.

It's raining here, so I need to get at that fantastic! Editor so I can change some of the tiles around my house.

[JerseyJohn]

Desert Dave,

Sounds good, especially if we could simulate things like the trade winds moving weather in clock-wise or counter-clockwise cycles.

"...say, for land tiles in and surrounding Bogart's Casablanca?"

"I came here for the waters."

-- "But Rick, Casablanca is on the desert."

"I was misinformed."

[ April 29, 2004, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[ev]

We need some winter representation.

First, we need the Russian Winter. Entire armies were decimated because of the Russian Winter. This is no minute tactical micromanagement issue. I would require any player operating within Russia, Finland, northern Sweeden and northern Norway to spend MPPs to prepare his or her units for winter, else suffer serious decimation. ...yes, even the Russians - remember what happened to the Russian army when they attacked Finland in the Winter without the adequate preparations.

Second, I would not allow amphibous landings in the North Atlantic during the Winter.

Finally, it would also be nice to include certain movement and combat pennalties for operations in Western Europe and in Russia during winter time.

[KDG]

As quoted from above by PZGNDR:

Rough idea is to have different weather zones for the map. Weather would be clear, rain/mud, or snow/frozen.

Bad weather would affect movement, readiness, air attacks, etc. No amphibious assaults during bad weather. Subtle changes for the most part, nothing too drastic.

[Desert Dave]

JJ,

Knew you would appreciate the new Weather schematic in SC2.

It is one of the things you have been asking for since way back when.

We'll have to create a new weather Zone for Ricks' Place there in Casablanca.

Hmmm, it would probably need to be 90% chance for overcast, almost all the time.

If not those "counter-clockwise cycles" of yours... then, surely, to faithfully account for Bogey's constantly rising clouds of cigarette smoke.

[JerseyJohn]

DesertDave

Yes, a lot of us including your unfortunate brother -- I can't bring myself to utter his name as I see him being led away in that awfull restrainer ... you know ... -- my old friend and so many others who also spoke about this type of system.

You're bringing up Casablanca convinced me to watch it this afternoon and even after seeing it dozens of times it still gets you. Those little scenes, like the elderly couple learning English, "What watch, poppa?" [looks at the clock] "Eight watch, momma," are still fun to see.

Agreed, Bogie and his chain smoking would need to be figured as a sort of small active volcano.

[Sombra]

I would like to hear some more comments regarding seasons / weatehr effects.

The situation in SC1 is:

- You can launch an invasion in Rusia regardless of the season. Though many times the german player can wait up to Dez.1941 for maximum build up for his forces to launch Barbarossa. More interessting would be IMHO if the Axis player has to decide: launch an attack early when my troops can still move or risk that Rusia declares war and loosing the surprise effect.

- You can launch a seainvasion regardless of season / weather etc.

Wouldn´t it be nice to see a small popoup asking you to launch the invasion and risking high casulties due to weather or wait a turn?

- Reduce the effektiviness of airfleets due to weather effekts for example 50% less attack ?