Why is the cease-fire request secret ?

[Thin Red Line]

I never figured out why in CMBO, and i guess it is the same in CMBB (but i didn't receive the game yet some plese tell me if i'm wrong), why is tthe cease-fire request kept secret ?

In RL, if you want a cease-fire, i imagine you send a deleguation with a white flag toward the ennemy lines and negociations start. So why is it different in CM ? Why isn't the other side informed ? Is there any particular reason for that?

I've asked many cease-fires in-game, when i was loosing but sometimes also when i was winning hands down to allow an honorable exit to my ennemy (and the carnage of last turns are rather boring...) with no success.

The fact that it is kept secret plays a role here i think if the request was known by the ennemy it would be more common. And more realistic.

[Xavier]

Good question.

[General Tacticus]

A "cease fire" in CM is not an official ceasation of hostilities...it's just a what happens naturally when both sides take a short break from shooting the badguys...the shooting could well begin in 15 minutes time, when the attacker comes up with a new plan, etc....

So...by indicating that you want a ceasefire is just telling the computer that you'll stop shooting if the badguys do...quite how you'd get a delegation through to the badguys in the middle of a firefight, I don't know...

[SenorBeef]

The cease fire feature in CM, if done by both sides, ends the battle - so it definitely is an official cessation of hostility.

I'm pretty sure the cease fire option has no affect on the way the AI plays, other than whether or not it accepts the cease fire.. so I think you have a false impression of what the cease fire feature does.

My guess is that signally for a cease fire publically signals weakness. If both you and your opponent are out of steam, and aren't really sure how much force each other has left.. and you signal for a cease fire, the enemy might feel confident enough to destroy you. Whereas if you both (secretly) request one, it'd go through.

Well, that's my only guess. If that's the case, an option for secret or public cease fires might be nice.

[zukkov]

this has nothing to do with the game, but since you mentioned cease fires, it reminds me of a battle i read about in a book. the fighting had been going on for quite some time. then suddenly, the shooting stopped. no particular reason, just that both sides wanted a break. after a while, both commanders negotiated a formal 1 hour cease fire to move the wounded, etc. the americans used the time as a break. the germans used the time to manuever. after the 1 hour was up, the germans attacked and overran the american positions. only quick artillery support kept it from becoming a disaster...

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by SenorBeef:

Well, that's my only guess. If that's the case, an option for secret or public cease fires might be nice.

What's keeping you from telling your opponent that you just issued a cease-fire request?

Dschugaschwili

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by SenorBeef:

My guess is that signally for a cease fire publically signals weakness. If both you and your opponent are out of steam, and aren't really sure how much force each other has left.. and you signal for a cease fire, the enemy might feel confident enough to destroy you. Whereas if you both (secretly) request one, it'd go through.

I got your point but for me the cease-fire is not useful only when you loose.

I is also an alternative for victory ; if you feel your opponent has suffered enough and don't want to turn the encounter into a slugfest ( for the reason i mentionned), you may offer him a break. If he takes it as a sign of weakness and refuses the cease-fire, he will still loose the game.

What happen beyond the cease-fire (evacuation of the place by the defeated side, fight starting again, etc) is out of the scope of the CM battles.

I'm mainly talking about casual H2H games, i never play the AI, and not for tournaments or ladders where the level of victory is more crucial.

[Visom]

Here's one reason for keeping it secret: flag rushes.

[LightningWar]

I guess if I remember right. If you request a cease fire and your opponent doesnt. The game would go on right?

So keeping it secret is really pointless as if you actually want a cease fire you have to get the other side to also request a cease fire.

LW

[Bruno Weiss]

Right, the secret aspect didn't make any sense in BO, and it still doesn't. If I want a ceasefire, or for some reason otherwise it is necessary, I just talk to my opponent and see if they agree whereupon we both tell the AI that's it. We'll agree for example, no further movement, etc. But it would have been a lot easier if the interface just told you the other side had initiated it. Still doesn't mean you'd have to accept it.

[Xavier]

Originally posted by Visom:

Here's one reason for keeping it secret: flag rushes.

Good point here.

[Bruno Weiss]

Why would that be a good reason, splain? If you publically entered a ceasefire request, either your too tactically weak to do anything and couldn't stop a flag rush anyways, or you would have prepared for it just in case prior to asking for a ceasefire. In either case, the public display of the request as opposed to secret wouldn't make any difference. Infact, since your opponent has no way to know you've asked for a ceasefire, then 99.9% of the time, there ain't gonna be one, cause how the devil would anyone know it has been requested?

Frankly, I use it as a surrender mechanism. If beaten, and to avoid a boring continuation of the inevitable, I'll signal my opponent and see if he wants to call it quits. Which, my whole point is, would be nice if it were automatic and not some sort of secret squirrel code or somefink.

General Tacticus wrote:

A "cease fire" in CM is not an official ceasation of hostilities...it's just a what happens naturally when both sides take a short break from shooting the badguys...the shooting could well begin in 15 minutes time, when the attacker comes up with a new plan, etc....

Huh? A ceasefire if accepted, ends the game. The AI tallies up the scores based on where things stand at that point in time. It is the same as the end of the game. Unless...it has changed in CMBB cause I ain't tried it there yet? Has it changed in CMBB?

[ September 26, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Visom]

Flag rush. Defending player still holds all the flags. Attacker has taken heavier casualties than the defender and both players are about equally strong. There's no way he can proceed the attack without great loss of men and later suffer from the counterattack. Ceasefire is the way out since neither player wants to attack, so the defender offers a ceasefire. Sure, fine with me says the attacker and makes a flag rush, thereby contesting the three flags and manage to get a draw instead of a major loss.

[Bruno Weiss]

Well okay yeah, maybe that scenario might develop and if so you'd be right, and we probably could conjure up a bunch of variables but in the end, since the other guy don't know a ceasefire has been entered it all makes little difference cause unless both enter a ceasefire then there ain't gonna be one.

The tool as it were, would be much more effective as a means of ending the game outright than some secret "gee I wonder" mechanism in the vain hope of coincedence the other feller is thinking the same thing.

Seems like maybe the original conception was along a single track of thought that somehow a large number of games would come down to both players stomping the crap outta each other and stagnate opposing lines would form where both sides were sitting there gawking at each other and the two players would just quite naturally poke the ceasefire button simultaneously. Eeek!

As was discussed way back in the CMBO days, a more interesting usage of the ceasefire option would have been to setup the AI with some parameters wherein particular conditions have to be met by the requesting side or both sides, in order to achieve the desired ceasefire. And ofcourse, the knowledge in the first place that a ceasefire had been requested.

[ September 26, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[Moon]

Some confusion here apparently about what "ceasefire" does or doesn't. Ceasefire isn't an automatic end to the game, Bruno. It only ends the game when the opponent (AI or human) selects Ceasefire also.

Now, the AI is willing to go for a ceasefire early, because it's been programmed to do so. (That's why you might think it's an automatic ending, I assume.) The reason for this is merely convencience for the player, to basically allow you to end a game when you feel it's over without having to Alt-Q out of it. And before the question comes up: Yes, you can abuse this as a player.

It works slightly different against human opponents. The ceasefire request is hidden, because if the opponent knew that you requested a ceasefire, he would know that he can simply rush forward because you're nearly finished anyway. However, of course you can at any time use email or the chat function to tell your opponent that you want a ceasefire. So again it's the players choice. There would be no choice if the ceasefire request was not hidden.

Makes sense?

Martin

PS. BTW, in CMBB, you can also be FORCED to request a ceasefire. You will notice that the button will be pressed and remain so. This is the new force readiness feature at work (kicking in basically when your side's ammo runs too low), as well as possibly global morale.