Cavalry for CMBB?

[Agentorange]

I did search but it kept disconnecting me...

Anyway tho' I suspect this has already been asked... will there be cavalry in CMBB. As far as I know all combatants except the Finns and possibly germans fielded cavalry divisions eg with horses ( proper cavalry divisions )ok maybe they weren't so great but they were what folks had and something is better than nothing.

So are they in the game? I suspect not , they would be a nightmare to model and programme, at least I would imagine so. Shame if they're not, as they were a pretty major part of the military machine at the start of the campaign for some countries, but I can understand why they may not be.

Answers on a post card to this BB please....

[ July 23, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Agentorange ]

[Bruno Weiss]

My understanding is, there ain't gonna be no calvary in CMBB. Something about it is too hard to make all the lil horsee legs move in tandem, and it weren't in the scope of CM. And then there was the argument that mounted troops fought dismounted anyhow, then the counter argument that horsees pulled guns and wagons, and the counter-counter argument that it don't matter on account of it's too hard to make all the lil horsee legs move in tandem and so on.

[Panzer Leader]

HOWEVER... I believe in one of the latter interviews (Gamelan meebe? It's linked in the FAQ anyhow) Steve said that unmounted cavalry would be in.

We have gone round and round (me especially though I've no idea why ) about the horsies and Bruno seems to have basically summed it up. There is also a small question of the amount of combat on horseback taking place, ane even though I have personally documented many scenes (including pictures! Which were immediately discounted as staged) BFC is not firmly convinced that it was a common prcatice.

I would point out two battles in particular where mounted combat VERIFIABLY took place: Operation Mars where David Glantz details the cavarly of two Russian Cavalry Corps being decimated over the course of the campaign; and Operation Little Saturn, where Siberian cavalry charged alongside the Soviet breakthrough forces, successfully, and to the detrimant of the Rumanians, Italians, and Germans, who crumbled before them.

Not to mention the various partisan raids, the German Cavalry, and the other less famous battles. I believe that, at lest by the Soviets, they were used often and to sometimes successful affect. the Germans, though, I am not so sure about. I wish I had a divisional history of Florian Geyer.

[Schrullenhaft]

That's correct, there won't be any animated, mounted cavalry units in CMBB. The horses are too hard to animate at this point with the current engine. As much as we'd like to see them, it is far too much effort and complication to add them in.

It's also correct that dismounted cavalry units will be in CMBB. They had something of a unique TO&E, so they got represented.

Maybe in CM3 or 4 we'll see horses actually represented in the game with the new graphics engine.

[ July 23, 2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[Louie the Toad]

Dismounted cavalry?? Whats the point! Its the horses that make the difference. No, I am not griping about not having horses.

What about motorcycle recon units?

Vroooommm Vrooommmm ..... Toad

[Lah]

Want some cavalry?

You could console yourself with these I'm offering

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1752620386&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=0&indexURL=0&rd=1

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

The horses are too hard to animate at this point ...

What? Leave them out just because of the visual appearance?

I've stated before that CM with all units shown as cylinders, cubes and spheres would still be a great game.

Inanimate horses would still be a great addition (although, I admit, looking somewhat odd compared to everything else).

Not much of an issue on the whole, though. I just think that lack of animation is one of the least valid excuses I can think of.

Cheers

Olle

[Kuma of Finland]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

The horses are too hard to animate at this point ...

What? Leave them out just because of the visual appearance?</font>

[Lobodejesus]

And not to mention the 'motti' battles where a Russian division is surrounded with all of it's assets (including horses) and then is destroyed piece by piece...

I recall hearing some vet say that the correct way to ambush a convoy was to fire the first shots at the bellies of the horses. That set off an infernal noise and somewhat distracted the defenders. Any idea if that is true?

[von Paulus]

I think it will be possible to have cavalry troops; but it's just dismounted infantry. Cavalry troops rarely go to the contact with thier horses.

Paulus

[Louie the Toad]

Again, whats the point of having cavalry troops if you cannot simulate horses somehow?

Maybe these troops will be able to run much faster than everyone else!!

Galloping Toad

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Again, whats the point of having cavalry troops if you cannot simulate horses somehow?

As others said - because they had a different TO&E, and are therefore a distinct unit formation, much like German Panzergrenadiere are different from German Volksgrenadiere.

[Panzer Leader]

Also Louie, they will be modelled as fighting DISMOUNTED, as they so often did. That is, as regular infantry, rather than charging cavaliers.

Basically, they will be an infantry unit with a different TO&E. That is still good, just not as glorious as having them mounted.

[lcm1947]

I want stick horses then! BFC please fix or do something.

[Poobear]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

My understanding is, there ain't gonna be no calvary in CMBB.

Then what will my Germans eat in the winter of '42?

[Auggy]

Make them like assault boats...can't be moved with out a squad on them and have a sqaud of horses instead of a single one.

[Bruno Weiss]

Then what will my Germans eat in the winter of '42?

A Mosque. Cause they ain't gonna be eatin no calvary.

I want stick horses then! BFC please fix or do something.

Please note, the proper request is; Please do somefink!

What about motorcycle recon units?

This has also been discussed, and the request was countered with an argument that the vrrroooommmm vrrrroooommmm was too difficult to properly simulate in CM. A counter argument was put forth that motorcikels was almost everwhere in the German Army, and that was instantly countered with the Mother of Wish List Killers, the, It ain't within the scope of CM. Whereupon another round broke out where it cycled back to within CM it was too difficult to properly simulate the vrrroooommm vrrroooommmm. I'm not sure that; Hey kid you'll shoot yer eye out, was ever put forth but horsees and motorcikels, oh and streams, which is another argument altogether, just ain't gonna be there. My hope is the lil Robin song ain't gonna be either.

[Louie the Toad]

Dear von Paulus, Andreas and Panzer.

I know we won't have mounted cavalry.

The factor that makes them special is not cavalry charges, but the ability to move fast, faster than other infantry and not tire like other infantry. That can be very important in a tactical battle.

Dismounted they are not special, so why bother taking the time and energy to put them into the game?

Just trying to be understood. Toad

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Louie the Toad:

Dear von Paulus, Andreas and Panzer.

I know we won't have mounted cavalry.

The factor that makes them special is not cavalry charges, but the ability to move fast, faster than other infantry and not tire like other infantry. That can be very important in a tactical battle.

Dismounted they are not special, so why bother taking the time and energy to put them into the game?

Just trying to be understood. Toad

Louie, I believe that on a CM map they are unlikely to be dismounted (unless you are looking at huge maps) anyway, since they would put themselves to much at the risk of an ambush while transferring from one position to another. The high speed of cavalry is an operational advantage, not necessarily a tactical one. Tactically, you could be inviting desaster moving on horseback. One unspotted gun or HMG in your path, and your unit is up the proverbial without a paddle.

See picture below for operational movement:

The picture below shows a tactical situation. The comment to this picture explicitly states: 'Dismounted assaults are made from all directions'.

Can someone tell me where Golubovka is/was?

Both pictures from 'The Red Army Handbook'.

According to Zaloga, a Soviet cavalry regiment had ~1,150 men (in 4 mounted Squadrons , 1 MG Squadron, 1 Mortar Squadron and 1 Regimental Battery). They were therefore about the size of a (maybe) slightly reinforced US or Commonwealth late-war infantry battalion . The cavalry regimental battery had 123 men, and that would be additional to infantry BN TO&E. A US Armored Inf BN had 1,001 men, and a regular Inf BN had 836 men according to John Salt's 'USORG' document. The Commonwealth Motor BN (armoured inf) had 800 men in 1943, and the infantry battalion had 845 men.

So the battle you see on this map is an upper-end CMBB battle.

[Louie the Toad]

Andreas,

Thanks for the information.

Now I see that a player may discover dismounted cavalry in his rear areas in a tactical game, to reflect their operational capabilities. If so, that makes more sense.

They have ridden to a spot and dismounted and are in place (quite possibly on a flank or in the rear) outside of the 'standard' set up zones.

Toad

[Schrullenhaft]

Andreas, it looks like that city is probably in the north-central Ukraine (Lat 52N, Long 33E), almost directly north of the Crimea on the Russia/Ukraine border. Here are some maps but they show only the searched city and some large scale slopes (which you can select from different zoom and projection options):

Golubovka

Dubrovka

And for scale on your maps there, it is approximately 3.3km (1.8nm) between the respective centers of Golubovka and Dubrovka (though the way the map was drawn doesn't seem to indicate such a scale distance).

[ July 25, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]