Soviet Political Officers

[scorpius1001]

It is well known that many Russian units had political commisars attachted to them..In the movie Enemy At The Gates, I remember a scene where a human wave attack in Stalingrad Is repulsed and the retreating survivors are shot by thier officers and accompaning commisar...this might be spltting hairs..but will such factors be incorporated in CMBB regaurding russian morale in attacks..........??????

[CMplayer]

It would be interesting to have those military police as a unit you could purchase. Put them behind attacking troops, and as long as they have LOS, the troops get a morale bonus. But if the troops do falter, and retreat, then the police open up with their maxims. Kind of a double-edged sword. Coding it would probably be hell, but it could make for some fun gaming.

[gunnergoz]

Steve would probably say something utterly reasonable like "It's beyond the scale of CM." Whatta partypooper.

[Sergei]

The effect of having political officers was that they would be controlling the decisions of the actual officer to ensure they were doing their best, and orders had to be approved by them both before execution.

So, if political officers were to be presented in CMBB, it would mean that human player had to get an AI PO's approval for his tactical decisions. Like, if you have taken part of objectives but don't see it possible to carry on the advance, the PO might actually want you to continue the assault for greater victory.

But the main reason for political officers, IIRC, was just to spread propaganda and improve fighting moral - kinda like combined field priests and propaganda officers. They were taken back into use in July '41, but again disbanded at some point... after '42?

[Ymir]

Some WW2 historians state that Stalin disbanded the commissars as a gift to the army for the victory at Stalingrad.

Commissars where not just political officers "guiding" the CO´s but some was given commands of their own. That gave the problem of super officers in the army hierarchy. A battalion CO who was at the same time a Commissar was not very popular among the army generals.

After Stalingrand fleeing soldiers would still bee shot, not by individual officers but by squads of the NKVD.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Sergei:

But the main reason for political officers, IIRC, was just to spread propaganda and improve fighting moral - kinda like combined field priests and propaganda officers. They were taken back into use in July '41, but again disbanded at some point... after '42?

I think this is very much on the money. Political work ('Agitprop' in German) features very highly in all the Soviet officer memoirs I have read. I am quite sure that this work was not abandoned when the commissars were taken out of the decision-making process sometime after 1942. On the contrary, it seems to become more important.

[MOS was 71331]

In a video tape I saw five or six years ago, Tom Clancy called commissars "chaplain for atheists." He was referring to the political officer aboard a Soviet destroyer who had conspired with other members of the crew to defect with the ship to Sweden.

[--am--]

Film Enemy At The Gates completely false. He shows as today France concerns to Russia, instead of historical reality.

The political officers submitted to the army commanders. (By the way first political officers in army were entered by the French in XVIII century. In civil war in USA also there were political officers in army of North)

In urban fights Stalingrad the assault groups were at war.

[ September 13, 2002, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: --am-- ]

[Foxbat]

Pocket Katyusha! :eek:

Are these modddeled in CMBB? And why not :mad:

[Michael Emrys]

Why is that man smiling?

:eek:

Michael

[--am--]

In CMBB is not simulated:

For example FOG-2. It is installation of a fiery mix controlled on wires. At start-up waters with a fiery mix up to 100 meters during 2 seconds continuously. Were established by groups till 5-6 installations on sector and up to 30 on a site of a defense.

Or " a fiery hole ". In a hole 50-100 bottles with a fiery mix and mine controlled on wires are stacked.

[ September 14, 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: --am-- ]

[Mud]

Glantz and Erickson, if memory serves, both state that at different periods the military commissars had either parity or inferiority to the commanders, depending IIRC on how much faith Stalin had in his military commanders at the time.

Unless the NKVD troops were /on the actual battlefield/, they're not terribly relevant to CMBB except, _possibly_, as a fanaticism or global morale modifier, and for that you'd probably need to present bona fide evidence that they actually had the desired effect (instead of, say, encouraging outright surrender rather than flight).

[Commissar]

The political commissars or officers were not disbanded. However, their influence was greatly diminished in pure military operations after the debacle of Barbarossa. Although at first they were basically watchdogs over the distrusted officer class, especially those former Tsarist officers, they later became more of a person responsible for political indoctrination/morale. Even in the modern Soviet Army, political officers still existed for political education and to ensure the morale of the men. They do serve a useful function in that the CO can concentrate more on military issues since the zampolit, what political officers are called today, handles morale issues of the men. A Western reporter interviewed several Soviet commanders, many of whom were veterans of Afghanistan, and most of them said that given the choice of keeping or getting rid of the zampolits, they would keep them because they helped to relieve some burdens of command. I am not so sure if there are zampolits in the post-Soviet, Russian Army of today. Anyone know??

BTW, I wouldn't base my historical knowledge of the Eastern Front from the movie, "Enemy At The Gates." The movie is rather notorious for many historical inaccuracies.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Mud:

Unless the NKVD troops were /on the actual battlefield/, they're not terribly relevant to CMBB except, _possibly_, as a fanaticism or global morale modifier, and for that you'd probably need to present bona fide evidence that they actually had the desired effect (instead of, say, encouraging outright surrender rather than flight).

From what I've read of Stalingrad the NKVD troops on the western side of the Volga fought as normal infantry. According to Beevor, NKVD deserters were shot just as readily as regular army deserters.

However you shouldn't confuse detachments of NKVD troops with political commissars who were single individuals occasionally attached to units

FWIW von Mellenthin (in Panzer Battles) has this to say about commissars:

The commissars are almost exclusively city men and derive from the working class; they are courageous to the point of recklessness; they are also very intelligent, and know no scruples. Although they have no bond of sympathy with the troops, they have given the Russian army what it lacked in World War 1 - an iron and absolutely unshakeable discipline..

Usual provisos about using von M. as a source of course.

[ September 13, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[Andreas]

The usual proviso in case of v.M. maybe appropriate here, especially when it comes to later war. From the (equally biased but better informed) memoirs of Soviet officers, it is clear that they had a role in keeping up morale, by providing political education (seen as crucial), being available for individual, sort of counselling sessions, and as representatives of the party in the army. This could also serve as a non-military disciplinary/reward measure, since soldiers/officers who did not perform could be stripped of their party membership, or receive censure by the commitee (Popjel describes an interesting case from the post-Kursk battles).

From reading this, it becomes quite clear that the role was indeed quite complex, and probably comparable to the 'Innere Fuehrung' idea of the Bundeswehr to some degree.

[--am--]

You are under influence of a myth.

There were no " groups NKVD ". Were divizion NKVD, which differed from usual army divizions only by that in them the soldiers of the ministry NKVD (militia (police) too) served

There were special groups, but they were formed of the skilled soldier and submitted to a staff of army. Very much frequently they became last boundary of a defense. The stop of running armies, arrest of the commanders and political officers entered into their function which without the sanction HQ removed armies from positions. From running formed groups and sent on a position.

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Commissar:

(snip)

BTW, I wouldn't base my historical knowledge of the Eastern Front from the movie, "Enemy At The Gates." (snip)

Darn. You just defrocked all my Grogginess. Anybody want to buy a video library? Looks like I need to learn to read after all these years. (You don't have to know how to read in order to write, you know. Check out Congress.)

[MikeyD]

I recall in a old old main board post Matt spoke of hopes for including political officers, of hearing shouts and shots to stop fleeing troops. It sounded like he had it worked out pretty well in his mind, but something kept it from getting into the game (practical coding consideratoins? historical accuracy?). Anyway, we can't say they 'forgot' to include political officers. It was a plan that was considered then dropped.