Good use of Target Reference Points.

[HarryInk]

At the risk of giving some hints about upcoming tactics in my battles....hehehe

I've typed variations on "TRP" into the search engine and haven't found a satisfactory thread to answer my querie about them...which is:

What is good practice with TRPs?

One example I've come across:

I've read a Fionn Kelly AAR (vs. The Capt) where he side-comments when considering attacking a village that his opponent would have probably TRPed the assembly areas for bounds into the village. So I take it the woods in front of the village from which Kelly might launch attacks would have been arty registered by his enemy. When Kelly sets up for the rush, suddenly he'll have 105s raining on his parade....

Sounds like a nifty idea. But I'm sure there's more can be done with these devices...or other 'doctrinal' practices. Anyone out there got any good advice, fav' tactics, or horror stories about TRPs they'd care to share?

[Holien]

TRP's are essential at night with Arty.

Use TRP's to target open gaps in between woods where you know enemy armour has to pass.

Use TRP's on dense woods where you know the enemy is likely to advance through.

TRP's on Flags is a nice treat for the attacker and allows a pre softened counter attack to be made.

TRP's on the reverse slope of the hill from which the attacker will attack is a good way to ensure the accuracy of your mortar and artillery fire.

A TRP a day keeps the attacker away.

I love TRP's and they are essential means of leverage in a defence if used properly.

H

[Sgt. Schultz]

I am new here but I already have the spoiler barrage down.

When setting up, look at the map from the lowest view and walk around the attackers side. Look for any low spots out of LOS of where you are but within 1 turns march of the attacker's start. These are the most likely assembly areas. TRP 'em.

1st turn ... pound the assembly areas with every thing you have for that 1st turn. Non-LOS TRP fire will still take most of the 1st turn to fire so you won't use a lot of ammo, and will allow time for the attacker's troops to start their march into the kill zone. Do not use those TRPs again until/unless you get someone up there to make sure there are targets.

This will show the attacker you care and are not fooled. It will also shake up his forward deployed half-squad scouts. A lucky hit on an open topped vehicle will certainly get a reaction.

I try to make sure that I use 3-4 TRPs for just such things.

[Holien]

Hmmm,

That is a ruse I rarely use. There is usually too much map to guess correctly and it is a waste of points to buy too many of them.

You usually have better points to use them on rather than set up zones.

However, I can see that if you did choose well it would upset the attacker.

IMO TRP's are better used when you are going to have repeat use out of them.

For example if you have a bunker and position ity in such a way that it can only be attacked from a certain LOS. If you place the TRP on that point then you will enhance your chance of a 1st shot hit.

H

[Silvio Manuel]

In you example of that Fionn vs. The_Capt fight, The_Capt DID TRP the wooded approaches to the village. That's the thing to do unless you have big (150mm+) arty, since once the enemy reaches the superior cover of buildings, 105mm will barely be strong enough to inflict decent casualties. So use your TRPs on spots where you want to catch the enemy. This can even work near the start line with just 81mm FO's, since you're more likely to catch troops in the open, incl. support units.

TRPs also let you "shift your reserves" in an Arty sense only. If you are fooled by a feint on your flank, you can quickly hammer the real threat elsewhere on the map w/ TRPs.

As others have said, TRPs also enhance the to-hit chance of AT units...I didn't know about that one until recently & can't belive that I missed it in the manual. TRPs also let you fire on-map mortar shells without having LOS, provided that you don't move the mortar team at all before firing, once moved, you lose that bonus.

[Sarge Saunders]

One behavior of TRPs you want to know in advance is how quickly it will help you get arty on target. Will it be 30 seconds or 90 seconds?

This depends on quality of the FO and LOS to the TRP. So if it is important to get arty coming down within 60 seconds then you want to set up both your FO and your TRP to have direct LOS.

If, for example, you set up your TRP in deep woods without LOS to your FO but still want arty response in less than 60 seconds, you should buy a vet FO and use heavy and light mortars (120mm, 4.2" preceded by 81mm).

Hope this helps.

-Sarge

[Redwolf]

It has only been slightly mentioned in this thread, but TRPs improve the precision of AT shots at targets around them drastically.

Since CM woods are totally inpassable to all vehicles, you will usually have a pretty good idea where enemy armor will go.

I special, this gives high-end AT guns or SP AT gun like the Nashorn what they deserve, sneaking around and getting first-shot hits on areas where the distanceis alaready known.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Holien:

TRP's on Flags is a nice treat for the attacker and allows a pre softened counter attack to be made.

I was playing around with a Westwall operation I'd made and the AI did just that - it didn't put TRPs on flags, since there aren't any in ops, but on its own positions. My recon platoon overran a mortar, AT gun, and HQ unit's foxholes, and the next turn 81mm started falling, followed one turn later by 75 and 105. (I got them got out of the impact area with surprisingly few casualties - thank goodness for double morale bonuses and short delay times. )

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

One behavior of TRPs you want to know in advance is how quickly it will help you get arty on target. Will it be 30 seconds or 90 seconds?

This depends on quality of the FO and LOS to the TRP. So if it is important to get arty coming down within 60 seconds then you want to set up both your FO and your TRP to have direct LOS.

If, for example, you set up your TRP in deep woods without LOS to your FO but still want arty response in less than 60 seconds, you should buy a vet FO and use heavy and light mortars (120mm, 4.2" preceded by 81mm).

Hope this helps.

-Sarge

Keep in mind that if you put anTRP where your FO can't see it...you WILL get the nice "45 seconds" ETA (actually 90 sec, b/c each ETA second= 2 movie seconds- still better than 4 minutes), BUT don't forget that the arty pattern will still be the less-accurate 'out of LOS' pattern.

[ July 30, 2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[bsd]

Most of these people have got it wrong. TRP effects are cummulative, so put them all in a pile in one location, preferrably near the side of the map. Don't use them until a heavy tank rolls over them near the end of the game, then drop all your arty on it and it will explode.

Now set up your defence and send the first turn Harry. I'm waiting!

Marco

[ July 29, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: bsd ]

[athkatla]

All very interesting posts guys.

[HarryInk]

Yerrrrrggghhhh!! Get outta here BSD!! *LMAO*

Thanks guys. The advice is ace...I had NO idea about the effect of TRPs on ATGs! Does that count even if SP AT has moved before firing (eg...say the darstardly BSD hits a flank I've TRP'd and I rush my nasty Nashorn over that way and target enemy units near the TRP. I'd expect that there's no bonus in that case...rather like the situation of losing TRP benefits for on board arty if you've moved it in-game).

Gotta read manual one day.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by HarryInk:

Yerrrrrggghhhh!! Get outta here BSD!! *LMAO*

Thanks guys. The advice is ace...I had NO idea about the effect of TRPs on ATGs! Does that count even if SP AT has moved before firing (eg...say the darstardly BSD hits a flank I've TRP'd and I rush my nasty Nashorn over that way and target enemy units near the TRP. I'd expect that there's no bonus in that case...rather like the situation of losing TRP benefits for on board arty if you've moved it in-game).

Gotta read manual one day.

THe manual only specifcally says that Mortars lose the benefit if they move...so maybe AFV can still move and get the TRP benefit? I'll betcha redwolf has tested this.

[Toran]

Hi Sarge,

I'm just curious as to using the 2 types of morters, light then heavy. I'm a newb and still learning.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

If, for example, you set up your TRP in deep woods without LOS to your FO but still want arty response in less than 60 seconds, you should buy a vet FO and use heavy and light mortars (120mm, 4.2" preceded by 81mm).

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

Keep in mind that if you put anTRP where your FO can't see it...you WILL get the nice "45 seconds" ETA (actually 90 sec, b/c each ETA second= 2 movie seconds- still better than 4 minutes), BUT don't forget that the arty pattern will still be the less-accurate 'out of LOS' pattern.

You are right that out-of-LOS TRPs will still cause the timer to run twice as slow.

However, you can choose wide and tight pattern. The tight pattern is not as tight as the normal tight pattern, in special you have more round way off, but overall it is pretty much the same as the tight one.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

THe manual only specifcally says that Mortars lose the benefit if they move...so maybe AFV can still move and get the TRP benefit? I'll betcha redwolf has tested this.

In my testing tanks were not losing the TRP benefit when they moved.

It is a little difficult to be sure on these issues since we are talking about probabilities. For that reason I couldn't determine the exact TRP radius for AT direct fire yet and the above observation may as well be mislead.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

THe manual only specifcally says that Mortars lose the benefit if they move...so maybe AFV can still move and get the TRP benefit? I'll betcha redwolf has tested this.

In my testing tanks were not losing the TRP benefit when they moved.

It is a little difficult to be sure on these issues since we are talking about probabilities. For that reason I couldn't determine the exact TRP radius for AT direct fire yet and the above observation may as well be mislead.</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

Do you have any vague estimation for TRP range for arty/mortars and/or AFV?

For arty spotters that is easy to check since you get the reduced or full delay display when you're outside. I think the radius of the TRP is 15 meters.

As for AT shots, testing was too tedious and statistically damaged to be fun, but it appeared to me that AFVs 20m off the center of a TRP were not easier to hit, so it might be the same radius as for artillery.

On the other hand, I badly shot up a large number of tanks when they came over a ridge plastered with TRPs. The TRP were farer apart than 40 meters, still my impression was that all shots were with raised precision.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by Toran:

Hi Sarge,

I'm just curious as to using the 2 types of morters, light then heavy. I'm a newb and still learning.

Thanks!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

If, for example, you set up your TRP in deep woods without LOS to your FO but still want arty response in less than 60 seconds, you should buy a vet FO and use heavy and light mortars (120mm, 4.2" preceded by 81mm).

</font>

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Toran:

Hi Sarge,

I'm just curious as to using the 2 types of morters, light then heavy. I'm a newb and still learning.

Thanks!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

If, for example, you set up your TRP in deep woods without LOS to your FO but still want arty response in less than 60 seconds, you should buy a vet FO and use heavy and light mortars (120mm, 4.2" preceded by 81mm).

</font>

[Sarge Saunders]

Well according to Chris's chart both the regular 120mm and 81mm non-LOS TRP FOs fire in 43 seconds. I am sure that the vets (120mm and 81mm) can fire off about the same time ~30 seconds.

To pin the enemy down earlier, you will need on-board mortars. Shells should begin to come down ~15 seconds.

-Sarge

[bsd]

Originally posted by HarryInk:

(eg...say the darstardly BSD hits a flank I've TRP'd and I rush my nasty Nashorn over that way and target enemy units near the TRP.

Some advice on Nashorns: like the real rhinocerous they are named after, they are blind at long range but can charge aggressivley with their thick armour and work best in packs. So buy lots of them and rush as close to the enemy as possible before firing. I like to team them with 2-3 gun tractors for maximum effect.

Good luck!

[Guest Mike]

Umm...Nashorns have paper-thin armour and the 88L71 gun that is wonderful at long range!!!!

At short range they are carp and will die to .50 cal MG's!!

Are you thinking of Jagdpanthers and -tigers perchance??

[bsd]

Originally posted by Mike:

At short range they are carp and will die to .50 cal MG's!!

I thought Nashorns were rhinocerous, not carp. Can you quote your sources?

(quiet voice that cannot be heard in australia : Mike, I am kidding! I am playing Harry in a pbem so I am giving bad advice. I don't really rush nashorns and gun tractors at the enemy.)

[HarryInk]

Actually, having seen Marco rushing tanks around a battlefield, I do believe that he would rush even Nashorns.

In fact, if he could mount rinocerouses from the Berlin Tiergarten on arty tractors and charge them at me I believe he'd try that too!