Monty Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 Im playing a tryout QB, june 1941. As Russians, i bought the 76 mm AA gun, but i could not find a vehicle to tow it. ( Gun is transportclass 9, truck is 8 ) Is there a transportclass vehicle in later year or can the heavy Russian AA guns only be used in defense battles ? Monty aka Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted November 7, 2002 Author Share Posted November 7, 2002 Anybody found a way to tow these AA guns ? Monty aka Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Those guns are truly immobile... No Russian vehicle has transport capabilities to them... There must be a reason for that... or not Maybe their setup time was bigger then the CM battle scope ? :confused: [ November 06, 2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Tanaka ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Monty, If they're transport class 9, they can only start out towed, but can't embark once placed. So be careful about where you place them b/c you get no adjustment if you screw it up while disembarking *during* a battle. Also, if the transport gets killed or its crew abandons, your out of luck, the gun stays there...and has to go thru its 5 min (or what have you) setup time before firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Monty, If they're transport class 9, they can only start out towed, but can't embark once placed...Yeesss... but the Soviet truck has a transport capability of 8 (the German truck has a TC of 8, but they have the Sd Kfz 7 with transport capability of 9). At least until the end of 42 (and I suspect until the end), the Soviets don't have any vehicle capable of transporting a class 9 gun. [ November 06, 2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Tanaka ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Ummmm. Obvious question I guess. So how the hell did they get to where they're positioned in the first place? :confused: Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabpub Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 artillery tractors that weren't modelled (reason unclear) that beat feet before the scenario(engagement)out of harm's way.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 I really think we should get a russian artillery tractor. If you don't define a new 3D model this should be a pretty quick thing to add as the vehicle is unarmored and unarmed and need no special game mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engel Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: If you don't define a new 3D model this should be a pretty quick thing to addThe Soviet armored and fully tracked artillery tractor T-20 Komsomolets doesn't look anything like any existing vehicle in the game, so using an existing model for it would be quite a lot off. (a bit later) And it looks like it's armed too, if that's an MG sticking out. [ November 07, 2002, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Engel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Use a Universal Carrier as a placeholder for the Komsomolets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jard Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 I remember in the old CC3 that they used a Universal Carrier graphic for the T-20. Here's a picture of a captured T-20 : and this side image of a model T-20 : Some similarities with the UC, but no that many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wol Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Komsomolets tractors are not towing vehicles for medium AA guns! Nor are Komintern, Voroshilovets or STZ 3/5 as far as I know (Though all but the Komsomolets tractor probably could). The komsomolets I have never seen tow anything bigger than a 76 field gun, and usually 76 regimental guns or 45mm ATG. A YAG 10 Heavy truck would be a suitable prime mover. As far as I can tell its just a BUG. ANd a rather large one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Wol: Komsomolets tractors are not towing vehicles for medium AA guns! Nor are Komintern, Voroshilovets or STZ 3/5 as far as I know (Though all but the Komsomolets tractor probably could). The komsomolets I have never seen tow anything bigger than a 76 field gun, and usually 76 regimental guns or 45mm ATG. A YAG 10 Heavy truck would be a suitable prime mover. As far as I can tell its just a BUG. ANd a rather large one! You are missing the point. With no Komsomolets tractor (and/or horsies) in the game we überFinns are left with nothing to tow our guns with. The Soviets at least have their M5 HT's. BFC please fix or somefink..... BTW: the Komsomolets could tow a PAK40. But only just. [ November 07, 2002, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: tero ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Before we get on the BUG trail, it seems to me that these guns would not be pulled in a CM scale enviroment. These are intended for static airdefence stuff and would in a CM battle be used in preplaced positions. Looks like a design decision to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted November 7, 2002 Author Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: Before we get on the BUG trail, it seems to me that these guns would not be pulled in a CM scale enviroment. These are intended for static airdefence stuff and would in a CM battle be used in preplaced positions. Looks like a design decision to me Who can more info about the use of these guns ? Did the Russians use the Flak guns as AT guns like the Germans did ? Im shure they are quit capable for the job. If there is no transport for the guns, we should skip the German tracktorvehicle too ??! Monty aka Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engel Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Wol: Komsomolets tractors are not towing vehicles for medium AA guns!I know it's been used to tow the 76mm Zis-3 (know as in "read it on a web site"), but the 76mm AA probably weighs a bit more than the 1500 or so kg's for Zis-3. I have no idea how much horsepowers the Yag-10 had, but if it's anything near Gaz-AAA, it would be around 50 hp, while the Komsomolets has a 95 hp engine (if it's an exact copy of the UC mechanically, so it would have the same Ford engine). Of course hp alone isn't enough to tell everything about towing capacity, but it seems that it might just be able to pull it off. Or maybe not, since the Germans apparently rebored captured 76mm AA guns to 88mm, so I assume they weigh quite a bit more than the Zis-3 (can't check anything not on the web, bored at work atm). [ November 07, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Engel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Monty: Did the Russians use the Flak guns as AT guns like the Germans did ?On a few desperate occasions, ie the defence of Moscow. But they didn't do it on a regular basis like the germans. If there is no transport for the guns, we should skip the German tracktorvehicle too ??!No, the germans had these guns as part of their mobile units, and actually used the FlaK guns as AT assets all the time. Whereas the russians had fairly light AA assets for their mobile units, and only used them as AT assets in a few defensive battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: Before we get on the BUG trail, it seems to me that these guns would not be pulled in a CM scale enviroment. These are intended for static airdefence stuff and would in a CM battle be used in preplaced positions. Looks like a design decision to me The Soviets did not apparently know this when they hauled along their 76mm AA guns as a part of their divisional OOB with them to be captured in the great excirclement battles during Winter War (and which BTW were still used as training guns in the Finnish coastal arty in mid 80's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Engel: I know it's been used to tow the 76mm Zis-3 (know as in "read it on a web site"), but the 76mm AA probably weighs a bit more than the 1500 or so kg's for Zis-3.It sure weighed a 'bit' more The early model 76mm AA weighed in at over 3.500kg while the more common 1938 model weighed a 'mere' 3.000kg (the 85mm weighed well over 4 thousand kilo). These guns were towed by dedicated tractors like the Komintern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by tero: The Soviets did not apparently know this when they hauled along their 76mm AA guns as a part of their divisional OOB with them to be captured in the great excirclement battles during Winter War (and which BTW were still used as training guns in the Finnish coastal arty in mid 80's). They probably didn't expect their divisional HQ to become part of the tactical battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engel Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: These guns were towed by dedicated tractors like the Komintern.Found a few pictures of both Komintern (I knew there were others, but could only remember Komsomolets) and Voroshilovets, and they certainly don't look like any other model in the game, so adding them wouldn't be so easy. But if the Soviet doctrine didn't include them as tactical assets, there's probably no need either. But if we ever get either, we have to get Komsomolets too, for reasons tero posted above [ November 07, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Engel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Engel: ...the Germans apparently rebored captured 76mm AA guns to 88mm...Is this true? That sounds really risky. I would expect the 88 to be a more poweful shell involving greater chamber pressure. And Soviet metalurgy was a bit uncertain at best. Boring out would remove metal. I'd want to be adding it on. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engel Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Originally posted by Michael emrys: Is this true? That sounds really risky.http://www.jed.simonides.org/artillery/aa/zp31_series/zp31-series.html mentions these: ZP-31 - Original russian production model 7.62cm Flak M31® - Captured examples in German service during World War Two 8.8cm Flak M31® - Captured examples rebored to 88mm ZP-38 - Original russian production version 7.62cm Flak M38® - Captured examples in German service during World War Two 8.8cm Flak M38® - Rebored to fire german 88mm ammunition Can't say if it's correct or not, since it's the first time I've seen this sort of info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Sure that would not be a rebored 85mm AA gun? I know the model number would be off, but this sounds very curious. Some Russian Battlefield info on tractors: Komintern Picture of Komsomolets tractors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Both 76mm and 85mm guns were rebored - the 76's were both the 1931 and 1938 models, which became the 7.62/8.8cm Flak M.31® and the 7.62/8.8cm Flak M.38® respectively. The 85mm model 1939 was rebored as the 8.5/8.8 cm Flak M39®. Very few of the M31's were rebored and most were scrapped in 1944, but the rebored M38's and M39's were retained until the end of the war. Large numbers of all types were also used in their original calibres. As for towing - the guns were much heavier than field artillery (up to 5000kg for the 85mm vs 1700 kg for the 85mm field guns), but the M38 and M39's had 4-wheeled limbers much like the German 88 Flak 36, and would probably have been relatively easy to tow. [ November 10, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Mike ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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