Enoch Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 I don't think it is implausable that Ram II OP tanks were shipped and employed in Europe. We know that Rams converted to APS were used. Chamberlain and Ellis don't speak of the eventual fate of the Ram II OP tanks. I guess my initial statement was meant to say that since Ram II tanks were all converted before shipping to Europe, I assumed the same fate would have met the OP tanks. It is interesting to note that of the British OP tanks, Chamberlain and Ellis only give production numbers for the Ram II. Were they the most common type? Were the most of the others merely prototypes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Enoch: ...I guess my initial statement was meant to say that since Ram II tanks were all converted before shipping to Europe, I assumed the same fate would have met the OP tanks. It is interesting to note that of the British OP tanks, Chamberlain and Ellis only give production numbers for the Ram II. Were they the most common type? Were the most of the others merely prototypes?<hr></blockquote> Are you sure that all RAMs shipped to England were OP tanks? Might be worth checking/cross referencing. As to your specific questions, I don't know. maybe the numbers just weren't recorded? Also, there is an entry in C&E for the Sherman OP conversion in British use that you may have missed. Given the photos that Jeff posted from the action at Villers Bocage, I think we can safely say that the Sherman OP and Cromwell OPs were more than prototypes Regards JonS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JonS: Are you sure that all RAMs shipped to England were OP tanks? Might be worth checking/cross referencing. As to your specific questions, I don't know. maybe the numbers just weren't recorded? Also, there is an entry in C&E for the Sherman OP conversion in British use that you may have missed. Given the photos that Jeff posted from the action at Villers Bocage, I think we can safely say that the Sherman OP and Cromwell OPs were more than prototypes Regards JonS<hr></blockquote> I am going to double check this but, I think that all Rams shipped out were converted FROM regular tanks to something else (Kangaroos and apparently OP tanks). I thought I included the Sherman OP in my original post about which types had dedicated OP variants. I didn't read through the whole section on Shermans in C&E, was there a more detailed description of the OP variant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Well, there are about half a dozen pictures with gunned Ram IIs in 'The South Albertas' captioned (insert English region here), there are also references to training on them, and a definitive reference that 'shortly after [13th Dec. 43] the regiment received news they would be converting to Shermans' or somefink. I don't know whether we are talking Rams or Ram IIs here, but the latter definitely were in England as MBTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Ok, from C&E again, "Rams were not used in action as gun tanks, most being used for training only, in Canada or Britain." I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted January 23, 2002 Author Share Posted January 23, 2002 This is something I found on the web after a quick search. Seems relatively consistent with what Enoch has been saying….but also consistent with Graves account of the South Albertas FOO folks. Apparently none of the 2-pdr or 6-pdr RAMs made it into actual combat, but there seems to have been various mods of the RAM-II that saw combat in northwest Europe. There is a picture of a OP\Command RAM-II serving in Normandy at the bottom of the page. Note the two antenna on the back of the tank. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> The prototype Ram rolled off the assembly line in June 1941, and general production of the Ram I began that November. Within three months the line had been changed to Ram II production, which continued until July 1943, at which point the decision had been taken to re-equip British and Canadian units with the abundant and better-armed U.S. Sherman. A total of 1948 Rams of all marques were produced, the last 84 of which were the O.P. variant carrying a dummy gun and two No. 19 Wireless sets for use by the FOOs (Forward Observation Officers) of the Sexton-mounted artillery regiments then being formed. In its cruiser configuration, and limited by its small turret ring and 6 pdr gun, the Ram never saw combat, but was used instead for the training of armour crews in Great Britain. By late-summer 1944, with the war raging in Northern Europe, even that function had all but ceased, but the Ram found new life, and went on to do yeoman service, in a number of variants including the Kangaroo armoured personnel carrier, Badger flame tank, Wallaby ammunition tank, armoured gun tower (for the 17 pdr towed AT gun) and ARV. Sadly, most of the Rams which survived the European war ended their time as hard targets on a variety of tank ranges, and few examples remain.<hr></blockquote> http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cac/ram.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Sheesh, I wondered when You would check Maple Leaf UP. If you want a definitive answer, post a question to my publisher, Clive Law, on the mb there - he is about to put out a book on the Ram tank and other Canadian armour projects, through Service Publications. There are other Ram experts there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Jeff, thank you for bringing the Evans website to my attention. Its really very good. As to the non-gun/gun armed OP tanks, I think what needs to be considered is whether or not the vehicle was a "high" or a "low" powered radio vehicle. "High" powered "rear-link" vehicles tended, due to space limitations, in the British Army to have their guns removed, to make room for the larger, bulkier, tube powered radios which long-range comms required in those days. Typically for comms between say regiment and division and division and corps/army, they tended to handle the high volume, long range traffic. Although not exclusively used for morse, that was their primary method. The "low" powered sets where for short-distance comms, usually by voice, rather than morse and would have been less bulky, so the gun (and ammunition) could have remained. I also suspect that the sort of vehicle an OP recieved, depended upon availability and function - as in when and where within the OrBat he was meant to function. If he was attached to an Armoured Squadron, he'd have been more likely to be given a "low" tank with a gun, than if he was attached to an Armed Regt's HQ. I wonder if people were also aware that there were specialised OP and Sigs versions of some armoured cars in the British/Commonwealth armies? A lot of that information has been garnered from a variety of sources on RASigs, including books about Phantom and Spike Milligan's biographical sketches, BTW. He was a gunner and was finally invalided out, for mental reasons, after being wounded as part of an FOO party in Italy in late 1943. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted January 23, 2002 Author Share Posted January 23, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I also suspect that the sort of vehicle an OP recieved, depended upon availability and function - as in when and where within the OrBat he was meant to function. If he was attached to an Armoured Squadron, he'd have been more likely to be given a "low" tank with a gun, than if he was attached to an Armed Regt's HQ.<hr></blockquote> Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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