Waffen Grenadiere im Großdeutschen Freiheitskampf

[Michael Dorosh]

So, how do we think the Waffen SS will/should be portrayed in CMBB? They underwent enormous changes from 1941-45. Overpriced hamstertruppen indeed.

How would scumbag outfits like the Prinz Eugen be portrayed in CMBB? Would they be Veteran or even elite like, say, the Leibstandarte?

Would anyone care to write a JasonC-like treatise on the evolution of SS combat forces in the east - including the high numbered formations - and how they would like to see CMBB treat them?

Should there be special "rules" as ASL had - ie No Quarter when SS and Soviet forces clash? Should they have special morale considerations?

[ July 11, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Jotte]

A starting point

http://www.wssob.com/index.html

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

So, how do we think the Waffen SS will/should be portrayed in CMBB? They underwent enormous changes from 1941-45. Overpriced hamstertruppen indeed.

How would scumbag outfits like the Prinz Eugen be portrayed in CMBB? Would they be Veteran or even elite like, say, the Leibstandarte?

Would anyone care to write a JasonC-like treatise on the evolution of SS combat forces in the east - including the high numbered formations - and how they would like to see CMBB treat them?

Should there be special "rules" as ASL had - ie No Quarter when SS and Soviet forces clash? Should they have special morale considerations?

I think it is all in the experience and the new - how was it called? - condition(?) ratings. Generally, I don't think that an additional special rule makes sense.

P.S.: Sorry Michael. I corrected the errors.

[ July 11, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[mike the wino2]

Thanks Jotte great site. Not so funny how the events of the last 100 years keep pooping up to bite us in the a**, ie Bosnia.

Michael Dorosh your assesment looks about right, Prinz Eugen looks like a bunch of bastiches. Anti-insurgency?!? The few references that I have seen about German anti-insurgency policies were pretty antiseptic and even then were extremely disturbing.

[Austrian Strategist]

You sure Waffen SS Divisions existed before 1943 at the Eastern Front?

Anyway, I´d say nothing special above and beyond what the system provides for is needed. Equipment will be correct (somewhat better than Heer) I suppose, and probably Fitness will be a notch above average, because that was the main selection criterium for the SS after all; morale should depend on the scenario, as usual.

[lcm1947]

Were the SS soldiers actually better man per man then regular troops? I guess I assume that they were from movies and the few books I've read, etc but not positive. Any hard facts available? And even if they were would they not be just like the Para troopers in that regard? Or were they even more elite then that even?

[Michael Dorosh]

Good answers so far, guys - yes, these are the questions I am asking. Good point about fitness levels - the SS also had height requirements - are taller men necessarily fitter?

[Jotte]

Here are a couple of other links:

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/waffen-ss.htm

http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/Index.html

I hope they help.

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Good answers so far, guys - yes, these are the questions I am asking. Good point about fitness levels - the SS also had height requirements - are taller men necessarily fitter?

Not fitter, but certainly easier to shoot at.

In CM, I actually prefer the regular Army troops now. There just more variety with Army than with choosing the uber-Hamstertruppen.

I doubt we'll get special ASL-type rules like Waffen SS troops never surrendering to Russians, etc. I think BTS has pretty much put decided against any national modifers/penalities at least in the way ASL does it.

[Egan]

Fanaticism levels for should certainly be higher for the SS than you would normally find in CMBO, especially the SS units in the eastern front. Those guys were hard in every sense of the word especially when it came to ideology etc. perhaps SS units should have an automatic fanatic bonus straight off, i think this would make it fairly realistic.

[Jotte]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

[QB]You sure Waffen SS Divisions existed before 1943 at the Eastern Front?

The Wiking division was there from the start at least.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

You sure Waffen SS Divisions existed before 1943 at the Eastern Front?

SS Totenkopf (AG North)

SS Polizeidivision (AG North)

SS Das Reich (AG Centre)

SS Wiking (AG South)

SS Leibstandarte AH (AG South)

All participated in Barbarossa from the start as far as I can make out. They were either pure ID or ID (mot.) formations as far as I can make out.

No guarantee on completeness and correctness of AG assignments.

[JohnO]

I might be wrong or putting my foot in my mouth. But according in the book "Waffen SS" By 1940 all combat units of the SS had become official designation "Waffen SS".

JOhn

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Ozzie Osborne:

I might be wrong or putting my foot in my mouth. But according in the book "Waffen SS" By 1940 all combat units of the SS had become official designation "Waffen SS".

JOhn

John, that's as maybe, but in period pieces they are referred to as e.g. 'SS Wiking' on maps and in narratives.

E.g. my copy of Steets 'Gebirgsjaeger zwischen Dnjepr und Don' (1957).

[Scipio]

Again, I don't think that special settings make any sense. There were to many different units with to many different qualitys in the SS. SS units were also not generally more fanatic then Wehrmacht units. We could also say that Volksturm units should be more fanatic if they consists from Hitlerjugend boys.

I think it is all in the game already. An Elite unit with best fitness (that was the bad word ) is the best you can get, it doesn't matter if it is SS or for example Wehrmacht 'Großdeutschland' or even fresh Siberians or Finnish wood people

And the grate of fanatism depents on the special unit. This can be preset in the scenario editor

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How would scumbag outfits like the Prinz Eugen be portrayed in CMBB? Would they be Veteran or even elite like, say, the Leibstandarte?

Oi ! Watch your mouth there !!!

- Prinz Eugen

(Actually I copied my name from one mid-or-late 30s German cruiser or somefink, but still !)

[WWB]

To add to Andreas' post:

IIRC, some of those formations (at least Das Reich) came in as reinforcements after Barbarossa got going. From what I can tell, all were motorized infantry formations, and some were only brigade sized.

IIRC, there was an SS Motorized Bde. that fought near Velikye Luki in 42-3, and I am sure there were many others.

WWB

[Redwolf]

The Waffen-SS generally put more emphasis on sports, fittness and individual skills not neccessarily part of normal military training. That, and all the political shaping on top.

Their combat style *was* different and often resembled the chilchee of running to the enemy like mad. As most members of this forum know, when done at the right time this can actually be the right thing to do. It seemed to work surprisingly often, but SS losses were always extremly high.

Important to note is also that some units, especially the Totenkopf division, were in fact rotating personnel with concentration camp guards.

Michael, I have a collection of books about the Waffen-SS, inclduing German ones and some primary material like the OKW war diary and some division/corps histories/writeups. I never came around to read on the SS stuff, but if you have specific questions, please post here or mail me.

[Michael Dorosh]

redwolf - I may just do that after the end of the week - I am doing 16 hour days at two jobs.

As for the divs Andreas, check my GD site, I think I have a listing of the W SS divisions and the dates they were

designated and redesignated.

I am aware of teh URLs posted here already and do have some knowledge of these issues, just thought it would be fun

to have a conversation about it and take the focus off of the whole CDV thing. Numerically SS units were insignificant,

but in light of their scales of issue of heavy equipment and automatic weapons, their importance far belied their actual

numbers.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The Waffen-SS generally put more emphasis on sports, fittness and individual skills not neccessarily part of normal military training. That, and all the political shaping on top.

Their combat style *was* different and often resembled the chilchee of running to the enemy like mad. As most members of this forum know, when done at the right time this can actually be the right thing to do. It seemed to work surprisingly often, but SS losses were always extremly high.

Important to note is also that some units, especially the Totenkopf division, were in fact rotating personnel with concentration camp guards.

Michael, I have a collection of books about the Waffen-SS, inclduing German ones and some primary material like the OKW war diary and some division/corps histories/writeups. I never came around to read on the SS stuff, but if you have specific questions, please post here or mail me.

I disagree. Especially several of the foreign SS Division showed very poor battle qualities had had a worse dicipline, for example the 13., 14 or 23. Divisions. Just to name a few.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Scipio:

I disagree. Especially several of the foreign SS Division showed very poor battle qualities had had a worse dicipline, for example the 13., 14 or 23. Divisions. Just to name a few.

I couldn't have made it more clear that the aspects I mentioned only made them stronger under the right circumstances.

Scipio, you really need to work on your communications skills. How could anyone possibly read my messages as implying the Waffen-SS would be universially more successful? Nowhere did I say anything like that.

Must stop ranting... must stop it now...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

As for the divs Andreas, check my GD site, I think I have a listing of the W SS divisions and the dates they were designated and redesignated.

Michael, seems a bit incomplete to me. What about LSAH in Rostov 1941? You only have them down in their role as PGD and PD.

Anyways, if you have time to do silly posts with bad German topic lines here, you have time to tell me who the guys in the picture were. With a family tree if you please, and on the double.

Go to it

[Holman]

I'm no grog on this sort of thing, but wasn't the SS accepting just about any able-bodied volunteer towards the end of the war (and even pre-Bulge)? SS units were equipped differently, and probably led differently, but there weren't too many German "perfect specimens" left for the services to choose from in the winter of 44-45.

I'm for just letting the CM system of Crack/Elite units serve for the early/mid-war SS and the cream of the other armies. Later in the war I could even imagine "green" SS being thrown into the fray. (The problem, I think, lies in scenario designers being too generous with Crack/Elite units, thus diluting the meaning of the levels.)

[Scipio]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scipio:

I disagree. Especially several of the foreign SS Division showed very poor battle qualities had had a worse dicipline, for example the 13., 14 or 23. Divisions. Just to name a few.

I couldn't have made it more clear that the aspects I mentioned only made them stronger under the right circumstances.

Scipio, you really need to work on your communications skills. How could anyone possibly read my messages as implying the Waffen-SS would be universially more successful? Nowhere did I say anything like that.

Must stop ranting... must stop it now...</font>

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Were the SS soldiers actually better man per man then regular troops?

Being political hardliners, they were more fanatical. And there were stricter health requirements for the SS, while virtually no one escaped the army, so, yes, on average SS was more fit.