Hummel - Stories

[aka kingtiger]

Has anyone used the Hummel effectively? I always liked to use the Hummel in PGII and tried repeatedly to use it in CM over last couple days. Not in position. Knocked out. Ineffective. But like a bad movie at the theater, I stuck with it.

And finally...... My well positioned Hummel laid down hammering blow after hammering blow. My Tiger, Panther and Kingtiger approached gobs of devestated troops. The Hummel eliminated several Anti-Tank teams (I mean eliminated). The Hummel crushed many machine gun teams. The Hummel disintegrated rifle squad after rifle squad. I could not believe how effective that little devil was.

Reccomendation: When it comes to Hummels, Don't leave home without one. Cost is reasonable and has a 150mm shell. It even knocks out tanks.

Drawback: Easily knocked out by enemy armor.

[Guest grunto]

the wespe isn't bad either with a 105mm gun.

i think though that these two vehicles were basically indirect fire weapons.

those guns sure make a good case for direct fire application though don't they =g=

and isn't the hummel packing a 150 long barrel and not the short 150 sIG model?

is the bison modeled? i suppose if not we'll get it in cm2. i believe that bison was actually intended as a close-range infantry assault gun. it had the 150 sIG.

have you heard of 'schlepper?' i believe it had a medium length 150 and only about 100 were built and used mainly in the western desert.

if memory serves is was 1.1 rarity in cross of iron but 1.5 in asl.

yeah i just looked it up... carried 8 rounds of ammo and was apparently a wwI infantry gun on a french tractor.

94 built, first used with the 21st pz div in the western desert.

asl says the hummel has 18 rounds. how many rounds in combat mission? that thing isn't going to be missing with a long gun.

andy

[Guest grunto]

anyhow to answer your question yes i love any afv which carries a 150mm of any type and has tracks.

zverdoy is probably my favorite.

yes hummel will be a must-have for the german assault force.

picture this..

the amis have broken through in force and have recon and main fighting units throughout your rear areas. you happen to have 3 hummels and 5 Wespes (what's left of your panzer division's mobile artillery behind your lines where the americans have broken through) and some reserve infantry to counterattack with.

say the u.s. aircraft and artillery inflicted catastrophic losses on your front battalion and you have a couple of companies of understrength reserve infantry and some 50mm AT guns. you're hoping elements of one or both of your flank battalions will bail you out.

in the meantime you want to restore your front by re-capturing a town where american troops have already arrived. you want to hit them before more of their elements arrive, so you charge off with your mobile artillery and your infantry platoons with a couple of armored cars and halftracks thrown in and make an attempt at the town, hoping to clear the amis out

you start out with an hq on your side of the board.

the amis have some stuarts and m20s at the start, with an overstrength armored platoon and an infantry company as reinforcements.

say the germans control a small town hidden on the far side rolling high hill. there is a main road 'heimat' running through a valley past the hamlet which is on an outlet road and tucked away out of sight from the town the americans have occupied on the other side of the map.

the m5s and m20s are picking their way forward, looking for germans.

a town held by american recondo on the other side of the river, with 3 or 4 multiple sturdy stone 1-lane bridges over a 10-meter wide or so river.

give the americans an overstrength platoon of 7 sherman jumbos as reinforcements with the infantry

so

5 wespe

3 hummel

4 platoons engineers

1 210mm rocket fo with extra ammo

a command bunker and supporting bunkers on the far side of the hill in the hamlet

this hamlet is where the mobile artillery was based prior to the breakthrough by the amis. now they're being hurled ad hoc with other remnants into an attack against the lead elements of an american armored division which have siezed a key river crossing. without the bridges it would delay them at least a while before they could build new bridges across the fairly deep and swift water.

reinforcements:

3 panther and 4 pzIV

8 sdkfz251/1

1 regular infantry company

amis

5 m5 stuart

5 m20

10 m3s

platoon elite infantry

4 155mm spotters

4 m1919 mg

4 60mm mortars

reinforcements

7 sherman jumbo

2 companies of elite infantry

20 trucks

the germans are to capture the bridges intact to facilitate the retreat of germans who are still on the other side.

the americans are trying to secure the town and destroy the command post.

call the scenario, 'heavy artillery hell'

andy

[aka kingtiger]

Grunto.

WOW.

Hummel: 17H,1S OR 16H,1C,1S OR 14h,2c,2s

Wespe ~ 24h, 5c, 3s

Sounds like a little too much by way of artillery for amis. It is difficult to roll Hummels and Wespes over a large hill without being detected and eliminated.

As soon as Hummels and Wespes are spotted, American Artillery will finish it off. I seem to remember these weapons being open to top hits from arty.

7 Ami Jumbos seems a bit heavy as well.

Germans need some Pumas to offset the M5's.

But then again I am no expert. I will work on the scenario. Sounds like a hot project.

Richard Kalajian

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka kingtiger:

Grunto.

WOW.

Hummel: 17H,1S OR 16H,1C,1S OR 14h,2c,2s

Wespe ~ 24h, 5c, 3s

Sounds like a little too much by way of artillery for amis. It is difficult to roll Hummels and Wespes over a large hill without being detected and eliminated.

As soon as Hummels and Wespes are spotted, American Artillery will finish it off. I seem to remember these weapons being open to top hits from arty.

7 Ami Jumbos seems a bit heavy as well.

Germans need some Pumas to offset the M5's.

But then again I am no expert. I will work on the scenario. Sounds like a hot project.

Richard Kalajian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok let me get the game in my hands an experiment with these units.

a hummel is a very interesting 'piece' in any case.

andy

[Guest Rommel22]

The other type of armor I would like to see is the "Maus". Can you imagine that thing going against 10 jumbo shermans. NO problem for the mmaus. haha I want that in the patch.

How about you???

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

The other type of armor I would like to see is the "Maus". Can you imagine that thing going against 10 jumbo shermans. NO problem for the mmaus. haha I want that in the patch.

How about you???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah i'm not interested in the maus because it never got off the drawing boards to see real-life combat.

[Guest grunto]

ok how about if the artillery is toned down in one version like:

ger:

3 hummel 150mm spa

5 wespe 105mm spa

10 pioneer squads

15 sdkfz251/1 hftrk

2 puma 50mm a-t armored car

5 psw 234 20mm armored car

5 20mm aa gun

3 37mm aa gun

1 battalion commander

2 company commander

4 platoon commander

5 pzk

1 88mm bunker

2 75mm bunker

5 mg bunker

7 mg 42hmg

3 81mm mortar

1 210 rocket FO with low ammo

reinforcements:

4 pz4

3 panther

5 squads elite infantry

1 company commander

1 platoon commander

1 pzk

1 mg42 hmg

u.s.

15 m5 stuart tank

10 squads airborne

15 m3 haltracks

5 trucks

1 company commander

4 platoon commander

2 m1919 mg

2 baz

1 flamethrower

3 60mm mortar

5 m20 armored car

1 155mm FO with plentiful ammo so the americans have something reasonable against that 88mm pillbox with supporting 75s. i hear that with the patch the pillboxes are tougher and i would give the germans the toughest pillboxes available in this version. plus with all of those aa guns the americans will need to be able to kill them quickly if they come upon them or their infantry will be toast.

i want to try it with the 155 battery and if that is too deadly tone it down. same with the 210 rockets. i want to hear if they have a different sound than other artillery.

i remember once in squad leader. i was playing these two brothers. one was on my team and advancing a bunch of german elite infantry and heavy armor up the right side in a tight cluster.

his younger brother had russian 300mm offobard rockets and obliterated that force.

my column of elite infantry and heavy armor ran into a 100m a-t gun or two and after several tiger 1 wrecks littered the area we called it a day =g=

i wonder if a 210mm barrage is devestating in combat mission.

anyhow:

american reinforcements:

7 sherman jumbo

5 sqads engineers

2 platoon commanders

2 .50 cal

the germans will just have to 'deal' with the jumbos using their own 7 reinforcement tanks. how about if i throw in a couple of marders too?

so this scenario is initially intended to showcase the remnants of a battalion assembled around hq where the divisional mobile artillery is also stationed. through attrition you're down to 3 hummels and 5 wespes instead of the intended allotment of 6 of each.

using these and your aa guns and your pumas you want to beat back the american light armor. the german 37mm aa guns are viable against the stuarts i would think.

let's face it though... those concrete a-t pillboxes come into view and the americans will pull back a bit and call in the 155. it could be interesting.

with all of the vehicles i can envision a swirling battle as the daring german batallion remnants try a mini-blitzkrieg against the american scout force. the battle rises to a crescendo as the panthers and panzer 4s and jumbos join into a loudening cacaphony of mayhem and destruction.

if i get the game on saturday i will begin design on it.

andy

[Mattias]

My guess is that the Hummel and the Wespe were included because the Nashorn and the Marder had already made "most of" the vehicle available. Just mounting a different gun is probably not much work.

Because, for the job you guys are describing (i.e. almost anything in CM scale) these SP artillery pieces were only used when absolutely nothing else was available, and preferably not even then.

It was the Brummbär or some kind of Grille that was really used for this kind of extra heavy (here, not StuG or StuH) close support.

In the end more vehicles means more freedom, no matter the reason for their inclusion

M.

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

...these SP artillery pieces were only used when absolutely nothing else was available, and preferably not even then.

M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is grille a different word for bison? i would like to have a bison.

yes this scenario is pretty outlandish but hummels and wespes are so fun in direct fire.=g=

i had to make up some sort of excuse (allies breaking through with a massive airstrike and artillery barrage on a german divisional front and having scout-like units stumble upon some hqs and various assorted other units on the point of the breakthrough behind the main line. the german 'divisional light aa unit' happens to be there too along with the renmants of some german recon (armored cars) and of course the armored elite infantry =g=

and now they fight over a town with 4 or 5 bridges over a river and a series of pillbox positions in and around a hamlet blocked from los/lof to the town by a ridge.

sort of a rear defense.

perhaps have sharp peaks in thick woods on parts of the map, with wooden pillboxes facing backwards on the backside of theh little peaks so the americans couldn't approach them from the front. the russians used it on the germans - behind large 'berms' - in dense woods in 1941 and i'll bet the germans used it on the americans in 1944.

the explanation would be that these were field-expedient and wooden and not originally built into the west wall but built in the days preceeding the battle.

they augment the flank defense for the small belt of pillbox a-t guns in and around the hamlet waiting to pop anything which tries to drive over the clear spots in the ridge, as well as having los to the road which passes through the low country.

oh yeah and give the germans dragons' teeth so it's like a layered defense on the west wall... the amis minutes before shattered the exterior but their exploiting recon units are about to run into the second defensive belt while the jumbos lag behind.

so while there are lanes all over for afv movement, the roads are mined and the afvs have to pick their way amongst scattered-to-dense woods and patches of dragon's teeth which seem to be intent upon driving the american afvs into german kill zones.

and the germans want the town because the panthers and pz4s are coming in --- on the other side of the river !!! they're stragglers from the front.

so they 'must' use those hummels and wespes in direct fire support of attacking german armored remnants.... a makeshift kampfgruppe... a 'rag-tag fugitive fleet'...

=g=

call it "panzer lehr's last stand."

(fictional of course)

or 'stuart's charge"

andy

[Mattias]

Andy,

If memory serves me right you won't find any Bison around Normandy in 1944. The 12 vehicles that were ever used were all lost fighting in the desert.

However, of the later vehicles of the same type (SP sIG33 L/12) you will find both the Grille "H" and the Grille "K".

Both were based on the PzKw 38 (t) chassis but with different superstructures. 91 were produced of the former (at least 12 in service in Normandy) and 282 of the latter, of which at least 173 where still in combat in February 1945.

I don't remember if BTS has done the Marder III, but if they have it would be a, relatively, simple job to mount the sIG on it instead of the 75mm PAK.

In any even, definitely a vehicle I would like to see added for use in all those none "breakthrough threatening artillery position" scenarios where you want a heavy SPG.

M.

[Fionn]

Actually a Maus DID see combat against the Russian forces.

[Mattias]

Fionn,

In response to the "wish list" thread I presume?

Interesting! What happened?

Any source I could look into?

Judging by the poor price/performance ratio of the Jagdtiger I would guess that the Maus was something of a disaster.

M.

[This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 06-24-2000).]

[Doug Beman]

Can the Wespe, Hummel and other vehicles mounting arty pieces do indirect fire? Or are they, in CM, direct fire only?

I'd try to find out for myself, but every time I start out to experiment, I just wind up playing another regular battle.

DjB

[Doug Beman]

Ne'er mind. Found the answer in the thread titled "Can SPA fire indirectly?"

DjB

[aka kingtiger]

I'd like to see a Maus as well. But I remember seeing a picture of a JagdTiger somewhere in CM. What happened to the Jag?

Grunto,

Man Grunto you sure are DETAILED. I think the LARGE map should be heavy trees and high hills, meeting engagement with 4-6 victory locations worth 300 points each.

From either side of the map have high hills left center and right. Forces will need to first take high points and setup up FO and setup up various direct fire artillery (like wespe).

I am not familar with the 20mm and 37mm aa guns. I think towed artillery or machine guns will not work in the scenario I just mentioned.

I'll start on the map soon and report back.

Richard Kalajian

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka kingtiger:

I think the LARGE map should be heavy trees and high hills, meeting engagement with 4-6 victory locations worth 300 points each.

From either side of the map have high hills left center and right. Forces will need to first take high points and setup up FO and setup up various direct fire artillery (like wespe).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hi Richard how is yours going?

i will post over on the scenarios forum about this version i've been working on.

...did not know that the maus saw action.. interesting.

andy

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Well, the scenario you guys are fleshing out sounds like alot of fun. I hope to see it up and available soon!

[Wittmann]

All this talk of Maus on the wish list...I doubt your source which says it saw action...I'd love to have you prove me wrong but as far as I know there was a running prototype-unarmed..and a couple of armed turrets, which never got fitted together.

If we're going to look at 'could have been' then I'd like a division equipped with panther II,E100 and E75. they sure had some potential.

[Phandaal]

Yeah, I saw a documentary about German Tanks, and it talked about the MAUS, and how it never saw action. At least that is what it said.

The crew would need special breathing masks inside the MAUS and would incorporate many of the features found in modern tanks today. They also had some diagrams of German SUPERTANKS, that were just drawing board fantasies.

[This message has been edited by Phandaal (edited 06-26-2000).]

[jgdpzr]

The Russians claimed they engaged a Maus in the suburbs of Berlin, I believe. They do indeed have a completed example on display, so it is certainly possible. IIRC, the consensus of historians is that one, possibly two, Maus did see very limited action right at the end of the war.

Even more controversial is whether or not the ISM-III Pike ever saw combat. Most historians say it definitely did not, but some postulate that it was used right at the end of the war in the far east against the Japanese. Both of these cases point up the fact that getting the straight facts from the Russians was not always easy.

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"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger

The Dude abides.

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grunto:

i want to try it with the 155 battery and if that is too deadly tone it down. same with the 210 rockets. i want to hear if they have a different sound than other artillery.

.....

i wonder if a 210mm barrage is devestating in combat mission.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 210mm rocket was basically silent until suddenly there were explosions - BIG explosions . It's devastating, but not in the way you might think - there are splotches of utter devastation spread over a fairly wide area (at least one vehicle which was probably about 300m from the target point was destroyed by a near-direct hit). Don't try this anywhere near home.

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-Doug