Iron Road Block

[Luis J]

after several filed attemps todestroy the KV-1

I finally succeded by hiding my tanks and waiting

for the reinforcements, then rushing all of them

at the same time and trying to sneak a rear shoot.

I lost a few vehicles but some got the the rear of

KV1

This strategy was the only one that worked. When

I waited for the 88s, they took to long to deploy

and usually the KV1 had moved up and would destroy

them before they would set up.

Any other suggestions?

Luis J

[ParaBellum]

Luis, if you post scenario specific information, use a SPOILER

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for those who haven't played it yet.

[ October 17, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Schoerner]

SPOILERS*********

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Yeah, KV1 is a real problem there.

I was able, as soon as the 88er Flak had arrived and has been deployed, to get the KV1 driving to the left over the street (drove with some tanks on the far left side).

When he crossed the street, he was gone.

But i guess this is quite gamey.

Maybe rushing with the Panzergrenadiere through the wood on the right as fast as possible and before they leave the wood for the attack on the KV1, concentrating all the available firepower as area-fire on the woods, to make the russian infantry hide?

Didn't try that out, 'cause my first attempt was enough for a major vic.

[Magnum MGG]

Agreed about the spoiler... but I sure hope everyones done that mission.. since it's the tutorial.

A great way to learn the new arc commands, and the hull down command.

[Scots Gray mkII]

Actually a similar event to this scenario occured in 1941.The roadblock in real life was a KV II which held up a division fo 24 hours just by sitting on a road.The germans tried everything to kill it and lost heavily(at one point they got an 88 behind it but it was spotted and killed almost immediatly.

In 41 KVs are mega-scary kit

[rune]

Scots,

The scenario is historical, but the tutorial. I included the web link. Seems there were a couple cases of a single tank holding up a column, but the amount of days is still subject to debate.

Rune

[Luis J]

My apologies. Next time I will identify the post as spoiler.

[busboy]

Scots, I thought it was a KV-1.

As I recall the story, it had gotten into a rear area, knocking out trucks, some light tanks, and even crushing 37mm PaKs with its tracks. One attempt to set up an 88 ended with the loss of the 88, infantry couldn't dent it (though I think it was immobalized.)

Finally, under the cover of darkness they got an 88 set up behind it. At a range of less than 500 yards, it took 3 or more rounds to knock it out.

The story is related in the Cassell Military Classics book of "Tank Battles." Unfortunately, I've misplaced my copy and can't give a more accurate recollection.

[Eden Smallwood]

SPOILERS, BUT HONESTLY YOU SHOULD PROBABLY GUESS THAT WHEN THE SUBJECT IS THE NAME OF A SCENARIO...

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OK, so how does one properly deploy those 88s? I sent those vehicles which towed them into the trees and then Reversed until the 88s were where I GUESSED they were just in LOS with that KV.

But I had to GUESS, really- I can't click "L" and get the LOS for the 88 while it's a "passenger", right? So I have to stick it between two light tanks which are risking their necks to give me a good guestimate. But truth be told, a light tank on each side might have LOS, and I stick the 88 right between them, and Lo! that spot is not LOS.

And of course once it's separated it ain't movin'.

Anybody know what I'm saying?

Eden

[Luis J]

I tried to deploy the 88s one on each side of the road , at the edge of the forest. No luck. Then slightly inside the forest after checking LOS with the two small AT guns. the problem was that by th eitme they were deployed and had rotated the KV1 had knocked them both out.

So my next solution was to rush all my armor at top sped. He can only fire one at a time

[The Woodmeister]

I managed to beat the scenario first time, although grabbing the flag was a near thing. Having previously read the historical account of the incident, I was able to come up with a plan for deploying the guns without being spotted.

The key is to use the 20mm guns on the panzer IIs. Although very weak, the guns can easily hit the KV1 and force it to button up. Shoot and scoot moves can be used to pop in and out of the woodline. If the tanks take turns at firing, the buttoned KV1 will have a hard time spotting the fleeting targets before they disappear.

While this is happening, you can sneak the 88s into position and set them up without being seen. The buttoned KV1 will most likely be hit and knocked out before it spots the guns.

[busboy]

Spoiler warning, just in case...

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I just thought I'd come back and give my account of this mission. It was the funniest mission I've played in either CM yet.

You fellas apparently have had a bit of trouble with it...I got VERY lucky. He KOed one of my PzKw IIs as the slew of tanks bum rushed it, but after that I apparently damaged his gun. After that I parked 6 tanks point blank behind him and watched the ricochets, then he tried to run.

Here's this KV-1 hauling ass across the forrest clearing with 6 panzers following it bouncing shots of its back turret while I frantically try to set up my 88s which have just arrived. As its gun was damaged, I just drove them into the middle of the clearing, kept 'em on the road, and figured that he couldn't hide that way.

Eventually I honestly had to pinned him against the forrest with tanks that were out of ammo, and then an 88 finished the job. It just looked like something out of a Shriner's circus, I expected to see 50 clowns pile out of the KV! That is, until I ordered the 88 to keep firing on the KV until it blew up...

Clearing the infantry by the flag was very easy. The Russians seemed to want to stretch their legs with all of my firepower comming at them...as I said I lost only one PzKw II.

So, I certianly didn't win due to skill, but to luck (and perhaps guts.)

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by The Woodmeister:

Although very weak, the guns can easily hit the KV1 and force it to button up.

That's probably what saved me. I didn't have a clue what my units could really do, so I lined them all up and started firing all at once. Hee.

After a few minutes of that I figured out that it just wasn't going to crack that egg, but meanwhile KV had decided it was annoying enough to back up as far as possible.

Now I was able to drop one of my 88 guns in LOS, but you do know what I'm saying in re it's being an "iffy" guesstimating gamble, right?

Eden

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by busboy:

Eventually I honestly had to pinned him against the forrest with tanks that were out of ammo...

But that's how the tutorial says you should do it!!!

Eden

[busboy]

Really? Thats the only part of the manuel I skipped! Heh,

"German sucesses on all fronts is related to their astounding skill of pinning enemy tanks against features of the terrian with swarms of obsolete tanks of their own..."

(edit) Heh, silly. No it don't! (/edit)

[ October 17, 2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: busboy ]

[Frunze]

I managed to get the 88s set up by using the light tanks as a distraction - shoot and scoot near the edge of the trees.

Just move the trucks to where you want the 88s. The 88 should disembark at the truck's location, I think. I moved 'em up by the road too far, and they disembarked in the road before I wanted 'em too, but it all turned out good.

That was my second try. The first time, I tried the massive tank rush, and got creamed. Even at close range I couldn't kill the damn KV.

[busboy]

Under no circumstances will the 37mm guns pierce the KV-1. You're going for gun damage and an immobalization when you rush it.

[Little_Black_Devil]

****SPOILER****

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Well - Upon recounting the story involving a stubborn KV-1 which I read about in "Robert Kershaw's "War Without Garlands" and Peter Tsouras' "Panzers on the Eastern Front" on a seperate thread - I was reccomended to this scenario.

I enjoyed it.

I have played it only as the German, and only once.

My strategy - was to bound up with ALL of my tanks, leaving one platoon providing aimed cover fire, while the others bounded up closer to the KV - but moving to its flanks.

The concentrated fire of ALL of these tanks quickly forced the KV to button up, and although none of my shots were scoring penetrations, I was getting a number of gun hits, and track hits. I was also wasting a LOT of ammo, with some of my tanks firing while on the move.

In depth Soviet anti-tank rifle teams, managed to kill two crew commanders in two of my 38(t)s. That was the extent of my armoured losses.

My tanks had closed in, and simillar to what was recounted above, backed the KV against the forest. I had tanks parked within 10m of the KV on his flanks and to his front. The concentrated fire - and the obvious fact that his gun must have been disabled, (cause he hadn't fired back or vapourized any of my tanks) eventually led to the Soviet crew abandoning their tank. They quickly made for the edge of the map and disapeared.

I then mounted a well supported mechanized assault on what I was sure was the Soviet defensive (where the road goes into the trees), where I took light losses in men and still no further vehicle losses.

I used extensive area fire to suppress known locations of enemy soldiers - and probbable locations as well. The new "Advance" and "Assault" commands enabled me to make the best of the ground and the enemy's suppresion (thanks to my tanks and Half-tracks). For the most part - my troops walked all over the Soviets, though periodically a PPSH would get the best of a few of my men.

My 88's, came into action only after the KV was abandoned - and were only able to assist in the suppresion of the enemy's defensive. The Pak36's assisted in this as well. None of the guns - were able to get a shot on the KV, as there was a slight rise in the ground which he hid behind after his initial "introduction" - where upon there was some degree of breath holding.

I blindly chased the KV behind this rise - where anything could have been lying in wait - in addition to a KV, which for all I knew - was still operational.

In retrospect - not the smartest thing to have done, but momentum and luck in battle can sometimes be deciding factors. I was able to use the rise, to position one of my tank platoons in a hull down position to engage the KV, and keep him busy while the other tanks raced at break neck speed to get on his flanks.

Anyhow - that was my experience. I think I'll have to try it again as the Soviets and see just how dangerous the KV can be.

[Thomas Goetz]

Spoiler

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I've played this scenario a number of times, first as the Russians to learn the game mechanics, then as the Germans for the challenge. Couple of observations.

First, as for LOS for the 88s - you can set up the 37mms at the beginning of the scenario, and use them to find LOS positions for the 88s when they come on. As for emplacing the 88s, I found that just clicking on the gun (not the tractor) and telling it to "Move" to a given location automatically moved and unloaded it. Ironically, my 88s have never managed to actually do anything to the KV, as the darn thing is usually below the small ridge crest by that point.

One tactic which did seem to work, although it tended to use up quite a number of tanks, was to have all the tanks rush out into the field, well spread out, while the 37mm guns were used for overwatch. I've often had the KV hiding behind the ridge, so I couldn't see it until almost on top of it. Target - KV-1. Range - 90 meters. Ooops.

Couple of things about the KV-1. First, as has been mentioned, hitting it a lot will keep it buttoned up. Actually, it shouldn't be able to operate unbutttoned anyway - the tank CO is in front of the turret, loading the main gun - look at the periscopes, they are all up front of the turret. The hatch is in back, over the rear mg gunner. Be that as it may, lots of small calibre hits will keep the monster buttoned up, and have a respecatable chance of jamming the turret. Early KV-1s were very susceptible to even small calibre hits on the turret ring jamming the thing. Later models added some protection for the turret traverse mechanism.

Not only can all those small hits jam the turret, they will drive the crew bonkers. I was once able to knock the KV out without ever hitting it with the 88s, by first jamming the gun (I think, I had extreme fog of war and turned off detailed hits) then immobilizing it, then forcing the crew to abandon. Must have hit the thing well over 100 times without ever penetrating - it is truly awesome to watch a dozen or more rounds just bouncing off the thing in the space of about 10 seconds. Still, I was able to take it out of play, and it only cost me three tanks and a half track to do it. Ironically, I was only able to manage a draw in that game, because my casualties gave the Russians enough points to offset my control of the flag.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Thomas Goetz:

As for emplacing the 88s, I found that just clicking on the gun (not the tractor) and telling it to "Move" to a given location automatically moved and unloaded it.

Wow, now that's what I'm talking about! How you figured that out I can only wonder, but I'll look for that on the next scenario. Never would have guessed that in a campaign of years. That bit o' usefulness should go in the FAQ...

Eden

[John O'Reilly]

Eden,

I found another method that might be useful. I positioned all of my dinky little AT guns at the woods edge to begin with. I used one a turn to keep the KV buttoned. When the 88s arrived I gave an "advance to contact" order to their carriers. Since the KV was under fire from all 4 AT guns it was permanently buttoned and couldn't spot the carriers/guns. I then gave orders to the 88s to unlimber and having done this they promptly dispatched the beast. End result, no German tanks lost,

John