Will the MG-34/42 be feared in CMBB?

[Gaylord Focker]

There can be little debate over the fact that the Germans produced the most deadly and efficient of machine guns during world war 2. The machine gun was central the Werhmachts doctrine in infantry attack and defense. I realize "machineguns" will be modeled more properly in CMBB but with this simply mean making all machine guns almost equaly as deadly? I see the lack of modeling of the MG-42 as a huge dis advantage to the Germans in CMBO, it would be like hamstringing the American artillary brigades in my opinion. I enjoy CMBO and am looking forward to CMBB, but please give the MG-34 and MG-42 it's due respect as all of it's adversaires did BTS!

[Barrold]

Not only YES, but &%$@ YES!!!!

Attackers will not rush a machinegun defended position without serious carnage and suppression. Rune made a point of saying that the game is going to reward proper tactics and punish woefully those who still think of MG's in CM:BO terms. Watching them in action was a real treat.

BDH

[Gaylord Focker]

Great News!! thanks!

[Francesco]

But there were great differences between MG34 and 42... the latter was the most lethal MG in 2ndWW (as M2 12.7mm) but the first (MG34) had several difects... the rate of fire was minor, and it tended to jam very easily (especially in winter...) but it was surely much more light and easy to handle.

MG42 had a greater range of fire also.

I hope we will see MG34 in separate teams and also as squad-support weapons.

[lcm1947]

I Actually feel that they are too overmodelled as far as power (killing ability) and the inability to kill them but YankeeDog did explain that this was kind of being addressed in CMBB so I for one will be much happier to see this correction. Now as far as having to live with them in CMBO I guess I will but I don't like it. I also hope that they are more expensive in CMBB as I feel they at least are too cheap presently. Any opinions from those that strictly play the Allied's. I kind of know what those that play the German's all the time will say. but what about unbiassed opinions. I really am interested in getting others opinions as this does bug me to some degree.

[E Wendebourg]

Any opinions from those that strictly play the Allied's. I kind of know what those that play the German's all the time will say. but what about unbiassed opinions.

So you're saying that those who exclusively play as the Allies are unbiased, while those who play as the Germans are biased? Mind you, I play as both (though I prefer playing as the latter) and I agree somewhat with Focker. I think they're slightly undermodelled.

[lcm1947]

OH, oh wendebourg. After reading your post I went back and reread mine to see why you were taking my post the way you did and yes it does kind of sound that way doesn't it? Sorry, I should have reworded that a little better so please excuse my poor choice of words.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

I see the lack of modeling of the MG-42 as a huge dis advantage to the Germans in CMBO...

Then, as a new player, it may have escaped your attention that it is the deadliest MG in the game, all in all.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Francesco:

...the first (MG34) had several difects... the rate of fire was minor...

I'm not sure what you mean by "minor". The MG34 had an ROF of 1,000rpm. Compare that to the 500-600rpm of most other infantry MGs during the war.

MG42 had a greater range of fire also.

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that the MG42 rounds traveled farther than MG34 rounds? They both used the same ammo, you know.

I hope we will see MG34 in separate teams and also as squad-support weapons.

Since it was the standard infantry MG at the time of Barbarossa and could often be found in front line units for some time afterwards, I feel confident that we will see it in the game.

Michael

[ July 07, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Barrold]

The teams will be distinct of course, and the sounds for each MG will be distinct.

If the question is whether the two have been melded into a generic "German MG" the answer is obviously 'No' to anyone who knows how BFC goes about its research.

The question I answered was whether machineguns will be more fearsome and effective than was previously the case in CM:BO and this answer is an emphatic 'yes'.

The entirely predictable debate once any form of this game is released on the relative merits and accuracy of 581,654 details, attributes, and historic placements is an expected part of the charm of following this forum.

Not being an uber-grog, but rather just an enthusiast, I was very interested in how MG performed.

The development and discussion on the in-game tactics that will be necessary to deal with these units will be vigorous if history is to be a guide.

Some may say that they are still under-modeled and come up with their reasons, while others may find themselves reminded of the back and forth attack scene in the original "All Quiet on the Western Front".

My impression is based solely on opening up three hidden MG's (IIRC they were all MG-34's) on groups of human wave attacking conscripts. Lord Dragon can better describe being on the receiving end of the exchange, but the reaction of these inexperienced troops was to drop, die, or retreat.

Your mileage may vary.

BDH

[ July 07, 2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: barrold713 ]

[Francesco]

About these MG... I just wanted to say that there should be difference between them... MG34 tended to jam very often. On the other hand MG42 needed barrel-changement very often... could this be modeled in CMBB? Maybe giving "Jam" condition to all MG42at some times (when functioning at high-rate).

About the rate fo fire... I was meaning that MG42 had a range-of-kill much more larger than MG34...

And fired its bullets with greater rate-of-fire.

[lcm1947]

That brings up a question to my mind. Was the MG-42 in production in the time period that CMBB will be? And if so were their production numbers ? I'm hoping there were only 5 or 6 of them in this period. I realize I may be the only one here hoping that but one can hope, can't one?

[Barrold]

The game covers the period of the entire war on the East Front from June 41 to 45 and thus encompasses the production dates of the MG-42.

Unless I am missing the point of your question somehow. I am sure the correct TOEs will become available only at the times as it can best be determined by the research that was performed.

We were shown some of the books for this research the BFC team is using and it was thorough and impressive.

[edit] Geez...in my haste I missed the damned smiley and have thus completely fumbled this attempt at humor. Sorry...thickheaded this afternoon [/edit]

BDH

[ July 07, 2002, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: barrold713 ]

[lcm1947]

Yes, thanks barrold713 for clearing that up for me. So it's the whole period. Well, then I guess we will be seeing those damn MG-42's a lot then won't we? I hope they jam like crazy.

[Barrold]

I said I was thickheaded what more do you want?

I mean we have seen sillier questions here...my wife was yelling at me when I read it...fire trucks were screaming down the street...the neighbors were setting off pipe bombs....IT WASN'T MY FAULT!!!!!!

There ought to be a fish hook icon to protect the occasionally gullible.

I done heard dem machinery guns be firing faster en' heck....sheee-ooot.

BDH

[Phantom Captain]

lol,

Yeah, I human wave attacked a line of trees with many crater holes in front of it, (thought that might aid in covering my men on their charge) with three conscript russian platoons. I had previously laid an arty barrage on the position, moved my men up through brush and light trees, and had three t-34's about 800m's back firing with mg's and the 76.2mm guns on the german main line.

Well, needless to say, my men up and charged (let me say here the yells coming from your men on human wave are truly amazing) what felt like a hornet's nest of mg's. They were cut to pieces, panicked and routed in one turn. I think I had one squad left cowering in a hole and absolutely useless. The mg's definately worked. We were playing timed turns so that greatly affected the way I moved on this battle. Wasn't really left with a choice on maneuvering and destroying single positions, but that was the fun of it. Hearing those mg's firing, my troops yelling, then dying was mind-blowing. After the battle, I was amazed that it was two or three mg's that did this in one turn. They will definately change the way you play.

[Phantom Captain]

Oh,

Forgot to say, I could see his positions, and make out infantry?. Figured there were a couple of mg's and maybe a plattoon of men, interspersed throughout his defensive position. I really had hoped that my barrage and tanks would help in the charge.

He did lie in wait and opened up on my poor charging conscripts at I think around 50m's. The whole rout took place in under a minute. Man, hearing those german mg's open up still gives me the chills.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Francesco:

About these MG... I just wanted to say that there should be difference between them... MG34 tended to jam very often. On the other hand MG42 needed barrel-changement very often... could this be modeled in CMBB? Maybe giving "Jam" condition to all MG42at some times (when functioning at high-rate).

About the rate fo fire... I was meaning that MG42 had a range-of-kill much more larger than MG34...

And fired its bullets with greater rate-of-fire.

Couple of points...

Both needed frequent barrel changes when using sustained ROF

The MG42 had a higher rate of fire, but it was also harder to control, so that is kind of a wash

Many Germans prefered the MG34 over the MG42. That may be because of weight

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

That brings up a question to my mind. Was the MG-42 in production in the time period that CMBB will be? And if so were their production numbers ? I'm hoping there were only 5 or 6 of them in this period. I realize I may be the only one here hoping that but one can hope, can't one?

Uhhh... you do realize that CMBB covers 1941-45 don't you?

[Col Deadmarsh]

Testing is being done as we speak...

[gibsonm]

Colonel,

I notice you have a combination of disintergrating link and the canvas belt in the picture.

Did you change ammo natures for the young lady or did you just have a mixed bag (the canvas belt stuff must be fairly old though)?

[E Wendebourg]

By the way lcm1947, as you seem to have some agenda against the mg42. Do you mind me asking why you don't try playing as the Germans for once. Maybe you would come to like the mg42. :-D

[Andreas]

Jary, in '18 Platoon' recounts how a few hidden MGs held up a battalion advance during the attack on Mont Pincon. He also discusses the advantages and use of the MG42 at length. Makes interesting reading. The account of the attack on Bure by A Coy 13th Parachute BN, 6th Airborne on 29th Dec. 1944 got stuck when a few MGs opened up, causing the majority of casualties during the following five day fight for Bure (30+ out of ~60 IIRC). Bidermann, in 'In deadly combat' recounts an attack on his company position in the Wolchow area which came perilously close to overrunning his position, but failed mainly because of the two HMGs.

The German HMG was a weapon to be feared, if handled correctly. At the tactical level it posed a serious obstacle to the progress of an attack, and had enormous suppressive and killing powers. You needed fairly sophisticated tactics and the odd bit of heroism to overcome that.

At the operational level, it may have created problems for the Germans due to the heavy reliance on the squad MG in squad tactics (Jary describes the German riflemen as little more than ammo carriers for the HMG), and the profligious use of ammo by these weapons - interestingly, the post-war version of the MG42, the Bundeswehr MG3 has a ROF of 'only' 800rds/min, IIRC.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Testing is being done as we speak...

Excellent piccy!

I hope the kiddie in the photo has already collected her first My Little Pony Tank Destruction Badge.

Has anyone lese read "Peter Rabbit, Tank Killer"?

All the best,

John.

[lcm1947]

E Wendebourg:

By the way lcm1947, as you seem to have some agenda against the mg42. Do you mind me asking why you don't try playing as the Germans for once. Maybe you would come to like the mg42. :-D

Well, yes I do Wemdebourg. My hopes are that I will either be conveinced that the MG-42 ( No problem with the MG-34 ) is really that deadly or that such discussion on it will show that it is too overmodelled. Using the word overmodelled to mean too powerful, deadly, hard to kill and inexpensive. Other then that no reason - well other then it's an interesting subject and I am enjoying discussing it. I am seeing what alot of others feel and while it seems to point to the fact that most feel it's modelled OK and I may just very well be wrong, I ignore those that think it's too undermodelled as also having an agenda but just opposite of mine. Anyway, if nothing else let's say that it is that great and affective of a MG, then it should at least have a price tag that great to get that kind of power etc. which it doesn't. In answer to why I don't play the German's. I can't explain it I just cannot bring myself to playing on their side and shooting at the Allied's. I really don't know why. Maybe I should go see a shrink or something? So BF fix or do something.