some hints for at-gun-usage needed

[stutzkalter]

hi,

i have always problems in using at-guns. when i get them in a good position (LOS) they get shooten by inf or bombed to death by art, without killing someone. whats a better usage? can i get them in buildings?

thx.

harry

[Guest Mike]

Keep em back, give them long but NARROW LOS's so they cover important ground, protect them with an infantry screen of their own, only use them against enemy armour until they are already revealed.

One of the classic usages is to stop the enemy infantry with MG's and dug-in troops - he then brings up AFV's to deal to yuor infantry and THEN you open up with ATG's.

They won't last long anyway, but if they kill 1 or 2 vehicles they've usually done well.

[Yggdrasill]

One gun by itself, for that matter any single asset by itself, subjected to fire from numerous enemy units, is toast.

Are you defending? Is this an meeting engagement?

If you're defending you might assign a particular sector to the gun, giving it a limited field of fire but also subject to fire from only certain areas. Jason C had a great post on the reverse slope defense. Look in the archives.

If this is a meeting engagement and you want to give the gun the widest field of fire possible, that's ok too.

In either case, you want to place the gun in good cover, usually woods, and hide it until you're ready to use it. You cannot put it in a building. The question then becomes one of when to expose the gun to achieve maximum results. Assume the gun will die; you want to kill as much as possible with it before then.

One way to approach this is to open up with as many assets (AT guns, MGs, tank destroyers, artillery) at the same time, so the enemy will not automatically concentrate fire on a single exposed asset.

An AT gun should not be exposed to enemy small arms fire. It should be far back, and/or well protected from enemy infantry by your own infantry and MGs, mines, etc. In return, the gun will protect your infantry from enemy tanks. Against artillery there is nothing you can do, but since it takes a couple of turns for the rounds to come in, you should be able to take out a couple of tanks before then.

Often, trading a gun for even a single tank is a good swap, as AT guns are generally much cheaper than tanks (except the 88s).

Last, if you are defending, you can always buy a pillbox AT gun for extra survivability.

[YankeeDog]

AT guns can only be in buildings if the scenario designer places them there - otherwise it is not possible, so for QBs it's out.

Is sounds like you might be placing your AT guns in areas with *too* good LOS. Generally, you want an AT gun to have a relatively narrow 'keyhole' view. A nearly ideal placement would be in a patch of scattered trees looking down a road with woods on either side. Place the AT gun as far back as you can into the scattered trees and still see down the road - the LOS line should be dark blue in the area you are hoping to ambush enemy armor. Ideally, the gun should be pointed at a bottleneck like a bend in the road - this will make it harder for your opponent to bring all of his armor into LOS of the gun at once - which generally means that the Gun gets one or two shots off at most before DF HE rains down on it.

Infantry generally has to get quite close to an AT Gun hiding in scattered trees before they will see it. Tanks, even unbuttoned, have to get even closer.

Once the AT Gun opens up, you can generally count on it being spotted (this may be a bit unrealistic, but that's another topic). My rule of thumb is that if I can get 2 enemy tanks with my AT Gun, it was worth it. If I can get 2 enemy tanks *and* get my opponent to use off-board artillery to destroy the gun, even better - those are shells he can't use elsewhere.

The real nemisis of AT Guns is on-board mortars - they are a cheap way of eliminating the gun at little cost.

With smaller AT guns, you'll read of others who will have the crew push the gun back out of sight after engaging, hook it up to a transport vehicle, and relocate for another ambush. In theory, this sounds great, but I have a hard time making it work. Usually, my gun crew is still busy pushing the gun when the mortar rounds start to drop, and the crew abandons the gun anyway.

There's lots of execptions to the above - I'm sure others will have some variations of AT gun usage to explain.

Cheers,

YD

[John Kettler]

stuzkalter,

Ambush is a good command, even better when used with the hiding gun in command of an HQ with command, stealth and morale bonuses. The command bonus prevents or minimizes premature opening of fire, stealth minimizes the likelihood of the gun's being detected prior to firing, and morale can keep a crew fighting which might otherwise bolt when it starts to take losses. Keyhole LOS is vital to any hope of survival.

What I've learned, though, is that placing and targeting a TRP will give you a permanent accuracy bonus shot after shot. If you have any other weapons which can see the TRP, or reach it indirectly, in the case of onboard mortars which don't move or FOs representing offboard mortars or artillery, you can then use your various types of firepower synergistically to ruin your foe's day. Your sharpshooter can try to shoot the TC and may well button the target and any nearby, thus limiting observation and increasing the time before effective fire can be placed on your gun. A shocked tank is a bonus. Fire support can, depending upon size and luck, produce results ranging from buttoning to target destruction, and it is especially unpleasant for open topped AFVs. You can even rig it so that your AT ambush opens up, followed shortly thereafter by mortar or artillery smoke to blind return fire. If you kill the target with your shots before the smoke blooms, great. If not, you'll get another chance as the smoke dissipates, with much better odds than the target will have.

Treelines are great places to hide guns, but this makes them far more vulnerable to mortar and artillery fire because of treebursts. Disregard if you have a pillbox mounted AT gun. Pillbox siting

needs keyhole LOS, too, for an exposed PB will take so much fire and become so target saturated that it won't be combat effective. Watch out for AFVs with small, high rate of fire guns. Though unrealistically effective in the game, they are deadly threats. Keep them at bay as much as possible and make them fight on your terms.

Hope these ideas help.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Olle Petersson]

My experience when using ATGs in CM:

Gun positioned close to the enemy, to get flanking shots;

The gun is overrun by enemy infantry before it sees any good targets.

Gun at the rear, with large field of view;

Spot some enemy armour, eventually, and manage to get a few shots off. The range is such that the shots miss or bounce. Then the ATG is toasted by return fire.

Gun at the rear, with limited field of view;

Rarely have enemy armour within LOS long enough to get a shot off.

Fail to support the defending infantry screen, that get toasted by the enemy tanks. Then the ATG is overrun by enemy infantry.

Conclusion;

There are usually no good ATG positions, only bad and worse...

Cheers

Olle

[Barrett's Privateer]

I find AT guns give very good kill-for-cost value.

Many of the key good points have been already mentioned but here are some things I try to keep in mind when using them.

-Try not to do too much. Set-up in a carefully picked location and be patient.

-Assign a specific task they're going to perform. I think in terms of 'area denial', 'supression of mobility', 'divide and conquer''zone defence'.

-Identify small specific areas of the map you want to control. (The classic example is a town crossroad where two major streets meet. By controlling that one small location you can limit or shutdown movement in four directions.)

[Redwolf]

Did anybody test whether ambushes, as in with ambush markers being triggerd, improve accuracy?

Olle, I agree. You forget TRP's though, they allow the long-range hit you need.

[Silvio Manuel]

AT guns...it almost seems as if the most important factor (aside from placing the gun) is actually drawing out your opponents tanks before his infantry overruns your guns.

[Hensworth]

If you want to see what ATGs can do, play the 106 Brigade scenario in the Lorraine pack.

ATGs suffer the same problem as the German übertanks in CM:BO : they have to engage at a range which is significantly below the ideal.

An 88 shooting at your herd of Allied tanks from over 1 km away is a nightmare. Because you won't see it and it will pop one tank after the other. Even if your tanks do spot it and fire back, chances are you'll take a lot more casualties before they land a shell near enough to silence the bugger.

[Silvio Manuel]

Agreed. I just had a whale of a time in a QB vs. the AI (easy pickins, I know). It was an all-Green troops fight, and my 1 defending Pak40 (commanded by a +1 morale HQ) KO'd 5 tanks before getting killed. The enemy Green tanks, at a range of ~500-600m, couldn't place HE shells close enough to kill the gun. It's kind of like having a better quality gun at longer range, wrt to the accuracy of incoming HE.

[Schoerner]

In my opinion all important facts are already mentioned, but i want to underline: be patient.

If the enemy doesn't see fire from a location he'll think there's none...

Usually if your AT can knock out 2 tanks (~300pts), or even only one, the battle is already won (2000-3000 pts battle).

Not only because of the lost points, but due to the following phase of superior firepower or tactical strenght: the AT threatens usually a key/important area while the enemy will need to concentrate ~300 points to eliminate the AT, while you are able to build up a pressure with +600 points more than the enemy in the moment of eliminating the AT has or you are able to move your tanks in other key positions and gain tactical strength.

[ July 31, 2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[86smopuim]

ATG and TRPs,

how does this work? Does the tank have to be "close" to the TRP, or right on top of it?

aside: can on board mortars target TRPs even if not in LOS?

Also, if yer gun takes out just one tank, its worth it point wise and tactically.

Most guns cost < 75$, most tank cost > 100$.

My guns usually get atleast one tank.

[ July 31, 2002, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

ATG and TRPs,

how does this work? Does the tank have to be "close" to the TRP, or right on top of it?

aside: can on board mortars target TRPs even if not in LOS?

Also, if yer gun takes out just one tank, its worth it point wise and tactically.

Most guns cost < 75$, most tank cost > 100$.

My guns usually get atleast one tank.

The tank only has to SEE the TRP's 15m radius-area.

On-board mortars CAN target TRPs, even if not in LOS, *if and only if* you have NOT moved them since Set-up...as soon as you move them, you can no longer target an out-of-LOS TRP. Utilizing this feature is big, esp. if you have the nasty Brit 3" mortars.

Killing only 1 tank is OK for an ATG, depending on the value of the Gun vs. the Tank, of course. British 6 pdr ATG are great, low cost, tough to spot, quick pivot time, and they have Tungsten to kill Tigers and such.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by stutzkalter:

hi,

i have always problems in using at-guns. when i get them in a good position (LOS) they get shooten by inf or bombed to death by art, without killing someone. whats a better usage? can i get them in buildings?

thx.

harry

1) Usage depends on terrain. If enough terrain obstructions (such as woods, hills, slopes, etc.) exist, use the already mentioned "keyhole" tactic.

If mainly open ground with poor cover, you might consider to open fire with several guns simultaneously to increase fire density on enemy and to divide return fire. In that case, place the guns NOT close together, but with a good distance/spacing between them to achieve different angles of fire on enemy target (usually AFV armour is thickest at front, so the idea is to draw AFV attention to one gun, while the other one could achieve a side hit (esp. against Tigers (I&II) and Churchill VII)

2) Open fire on maximum range possible, thus reducing an AFVs advantage regarding mobility and rotation of gun, and avoiding infantry fire.

3) Whenever possible, place an HQ unit (at least stealth and morale bonus) to command the gun

4) If possible (usually not for QB), I place "surplus" cheap towing vehicles hidden and close to the gun. Does not help much against direct AFV fire (could even smash the vehicle accidentially), but if you see artillery spotting rounds coming down, you might be able to rescue the gun by embarking and towing it away before the main artillery barrage starts to fall.

Mainly interesting for operations, where force preservation is critical.

Not possible with 8.8 PaK (immobile during battle, you can embark it (but need appropriate prime mover, such as SdKfz7) in SETUP, then tow it where you want, but once placed or disembarked the gun is immobile)

5) If ever possible, use reverse slope tactics

6) the deeper you place a unit in covering terrain, the better the cover (the lower detection chance for enemy). Use this advantage (test) LOS during setup phase.

7) Compare penetration (blast), silhouette, and rate of fire of guns. Then consider terrain and find the best mixture. F.x. 50mm PaK and 6pdr are nasty little guns, difficult to spot, and they can fire a hell of rounds. But their penetration is rather low at large distances. They might be your choice if you play in terrain with short LOS (woods, hills, cities). A 8.8 cm PaK would be waste of money here (rather buy several small guns).

Excellent "allround" guns (for almost every purpose) are 75mm PaK and 17pdr.

8) Use Ambush points ONLY if you are pretty sure the enemy vehicles will cross that point (e.g. keyhole, road in woods). If not, your gun might happen to untiringly (and unluckily) target an Ambush point while the tanks pass it in only 50 meters distance and make your gun piecemeal.

(AFAIK, in CM:BB this problem will be better addressed via "Cover Arc" function).

[ July 31, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Ozzy ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Ozzy:

[6) the deeper you place a unit in covering terrain, the better the cover (the lower detection chance for enemy). Use this advantage (test) LOS during setup phase.

Placing a gun deeper into woods lower the hit probablity dramatically.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

ATG and TRPs,

how does this work? Does the tank have to be "close" to the TRP, or right on top of it?

See the other thread running right now "Good use of Target Reference Points."