How do the fronts differ in CM BB?

[kmk24]

No niin taitaa olla, kiitos Munter.

Vaarini on niitä veteraaneja jotka eivät pahemmin puhu niistä ajoista.

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by tero:

So how will these little historical facts play out in the CMBB:

- Finnish Maxim's being modelled to take in snow as coollant in winter ?

Your remark made me to dig up more information about the Finnish Maxim, as I didn’t remember even that little fact.

From Finnish Maxim Type Machine Guns I found out that Finns made quite many modifications into their Maxims (which were inherited from the Imperial Russian Army):

- The gun shield was removed due to weight problems.

- The wheeled Sokolov mount was heavy and unwieldy in typical Finnish terrain and therefore a German pre-World War I Maxim tripod was copied for use with this weapon.

- Special "pulkka" sleds were manufactured for transporting the gun and its mount in the winter. The pulkka could be drawn by men on foot or on skis.

- The model 32 featured a new metallic link belt, enlarged hand grips, improved sights and a rethought safety mechanism.

- The filling cap on the water jacket was enlarged so that the gun crew could stuff snow into the water jacket, thus eliminating the need to carry the water can and also removing all problems associated with water freezing in the can when it was badly needed in the gun's jacket.

- The attachment of the barrel was rethought for faster replacement.

- A muzzle booster was added to the gun. The gunner could now switch from 600 (which was the max fire rate before the booster) to 850 rpm fire rate by turning the muzzle booster and setting a switch on the gun.

I hope that at least the most important modifications are modeled in CMBB.

Is Tommi, TSS, still co-operating with BTC?

Incidentaly, anybody ever seen the data on the lost T-26's (which make out the overwhelming bulk of the actual losses) ?

I only weakly recall some single Finnish armour attack where many T-26s/Vickerses got lost. But haven’t got my sources here right now, so I’m not sure even when it happened. Quite possibly before 1944.

A further subject of wonder: will a BA-3/BA-10/T-70/T-26 be able to take a T-34/KV/IS(Tiger/Panther etc) head on and be as wonderful a weapons system as Stuart/M-8 are now in the CMBO ?

I guess and hope that the vehicle morale and different optics ratings will help to get rid of this annoying drawback.

Ari

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen:

Just hope that the unique Finnish terrain is in! ... if you get to choose a 95% trees setting ...

That's way too much!

It should only be 60-75% trees (tall pines), with one minor road in it, winding across the map. The rest is water!

Cheers

Olle

[Jarmo]

s Tommi, TSS, still co-operating with BTC?

I don't think so. I wondered about his disappearance a while back and Steve mentioned he has no idea where Tommi disappeared to. Someone mentioned he's still alive though.

Ja sanonpa sitten vielä minäkin jotain suomeksi, että ihmettelevät ulkomaan pellet, notta mitä ne oiken pölisevät sillä omituisella kielellään..

[Munter]

On sentään Euroopan vanhin elävä kieli, baskin ohella.

M

[Stu-40]

The weard northern nation with its weard people has quite a few CMBO (and defenitely there will be a lot CMBB) players, I belive. At least I was a bit suprised.

I wonder if there is any fin-tournaments around somewhere?

Suomalaiset pelaajat taitavat maamme väkilukuun suhteutettuna myös muodostaa kokolailla merkittävän joukon CMBO ja luultavasti ainakin CMBB pelaajia!

Onko suomalaista PBEM seuraa jossain, täytyisi oppia pelaamaan?

Nimim. ihan hiljattain rakastunut peliin

(Huomaa kahden kielen yhdistely toimivaksi kokonaisuudeksi... )

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

It should only be 60-75% trees (tall pines), with one minor road in it, winding across the map. The rest is water!

Cheers

Olle

With all respect Olle, I think that’s very simplistic and stereotyped view. Yeah, I bet you already knew it

Finland has been said to be the land of thousand lakes and that description fit to Karelia too, but otherwise...

Here is some info about the Karelian area which Finland was forced to cede to the USSR in 1944. The ceded area was larger than what the RKKA could conquer during the war, but these prewar statistics can give some picture of the battlefield.

- The area was 24 700 square kilometers wide (10% of Finland’s whole territory).

- Over 400 000 Finns lived there (10% of the whole population).

- 10% of Finland’s industry,

- 12% of Finland’s farmland,

- 1 city (Viipuri) and 4 smaller towns (Käkisalmi, Sortavala, Koivisto, Lahdenpohja) were located on the ceded Karelia.

More detailed info concerning the Karelian Isthmus only (where the most decisive battles were fought – the area between Suomenlahti and Laatokka in the map):

- In 1939, before Finland was “industrialised”, there were 124 industrial establishments,

- 20 187 farms,

- 3 towns, 840 villages with 359 elementary schools and about 1000 shops on the area.

- There was also pretty good road network for the time.

So the most important part of the Finnish front wasn’t just piece of forested wildlife back then, although nowadays, if you visit there, it can give that impression. In fact, crossing the current border is like time traveling.

Ari

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

I wondered about his disappearance a while back and Steve mentioned he has no idea where Tommi disappeared to. Someone mentioned he's still alive though.

That's some bad. Hopefully Tommi has already delivered enough information for BFC to make as realistic presentation of the Finns for CMBB as possible. I'd like to see his most entertaining posts here on forum again. Thought his silence was due to the work with BFC. Anyway nice to hear that he is OK.

Ja sanonpa sitten vielä minäkin jotain suomeksi, että ihmettelevät ulkomaan pellet, notta mitä ne oiken pölisevät sillä omituisella kielellään..

Myös minä. Elikkä kaikille vastatulleille "nööseille" suosittelen Tommi Syrjäsen vanhojen postien lukemista arkistoista. Ainakin omasta mielestäni niistä löytyy hyvinkin mielenkiintoista sotahistoriaan liittyvää asiaa. Tommin, eli TSS:n jäsennumero on 852.

Kesän jatkoja,

Ari

[Jarmo]

By the way Ari, I just happened to huomaamaan, että sinun Member number on a lot smaller than mine, even if you rekisteröidyit vasta viikko after me.

I demand satisfaction in the fields of CMBB once se on saapunut tänne pohjan perukoille!

Ja on muuten ollut bloody many villages in the Karjalan alueella. Olisin veikannut, että maybe fifty?

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

By the way Ari, I just happened to huomaamaan, että sinun Member number on a lot smaller than mine, even if you rekisteröidyit vasta viikko after me.

Ach that, well it’s quite complicated and only possible because of the ikivanha pärstäkerroinjärjestelmä, which is käänteisenä käytössä in here. Basically mitä rumempi olet, the smaller number you get. Normally I totally abstain from katsomasta peiliin, but sometimes just can’t avoid it. It's most tuskallista. But I’d never accept to tapaamaan kasvoista kasvoihin anyone from kärkikymmenikkö, because that would take even my yöunet for vuosiksi eteenpäin.

I demand satisfaction in the fields of CMBB once se on saapunut tänne pohjan perukoille!

Haaste vastaanotettu! And it'll be time for my sweet revenge. For a balanced match I’d suggest that neither of us will play with the Finns

Ja on muuten ollut bloody many villages in the Karjalan alueella. Olisin veikannut, että maybe fifty?

Yep, lots of villages, but on the other hand 400 000+ people are quite a big crowd. My primary source was Markus Lehtipuun artikkeli, here same in English.

Itse otan Karjalaa takaisin mieluummin pullo kerrallaan, mutta ihan mielenkiintoisia artikkeleita kaveri on noilla sivuilla kirjoittanut. Toki myös muualta löytyy samansuuntaista infoa.

Ari

[ July 30, 2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Ari Maenpaa ]

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

Ach that, well it’s quite complicated and only possible because of the ikivanha pärstäkerroinjärjestelmä, which is käänteisenä käytössä in here. Basically mitä rumempi olet, the smaller number you get. Normally I totally abstain from katsomasta peiliin, but sometimes just can’t avoid it. It's most tuskallista. But I’d never accept to tapaamaan kasvoista kasvoihin anyone from kärkikymmenikkö, because that would take even my yöunet for vuosiksi eteenpäin.

Ari

Be careful, or L. Tankersley will wander over from the "Juicy secrets" thread and "translate" the finnish portions of this dialogue.

Be afraid.

[Ari Maenpaa]

Thanks for the warning Andrew.

I'll try to stop right here. Besides it's bedtime here in Finland now. And I wouldn't want anyone else to know how to get as small member number as possible...

Ari

[Wicky]

Edited: Competely the wrong thread for this post but I'll leave it here as I want an answer from those north of just about everywhere but south of the north pole.

Far to much Finnish lingo going on here, how about some Hungarian "meavon yukee poo?" Even my Grandmother stopped a soviet tank in Budapest with a broom handle - Don't ask me how she never elaborated

Back to the hugs (where this post belongs) or are the Finns offering more dubious favours for their advance copies of CMBB....the public deserve the right to know.

I don't personally want to offer hugs to the CMBB production team .. I WANT TO OFFER MY CREDIT CARD NUMBER so they can take my dosh and then they can lie down on a hot and sunny beach in luxury, for a week or two, and think of nice peaceful things instead of armour penetrations and smoke density algorithms, content in the knowledge that the CD is on the way to jolly England to me.

I must confess I did a small dress rehearsal and bought online ...cough... Medal of Honour just to practice shopping for the big day.

[ July 30, 2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[Munter]

Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

Guys, we Finns are guests on this forum. Cryptic messages in a pre-indoeuropean tone may trigger off the TIPS.

However, it was pretty refreshing to be able to read in one's mothertongue on an international forum. For those outside Finland, it was nothing important. Apart from us, that is...

M

[ July 30, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Munter ]

[Juha Keratar]

I think someone asked about finnish CM tournament? I actually organize one at the moment, on Pelit-magazine's WWW-board. It has already started, though.

-Lunael

[K Jonsson]

Originally posted by Juha Keratar:

I think someone asked about finnish CM tournament? I actually organize one at the moment, on Pelit-magazine's WWW-board. It has already started, though.

It could be the last all finnish tournament . Think about it, how many finns will agree to play the russians? Maybe its time for BFC to rethink about implementing an option where you can play against the same side.

/Kristian

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Originally posted by K Jonsson:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Juha Keratar:

I think someone asked about finnish CM tournament? I actually organize one at the moment, on Pelit-magazine's WWW-board. It has already started, though.

It could be the last all finnish tournament . Think about it, how many finns will agree to play the russians? Maybe its time for BFC to rethink about implementing an option where you can play against the same side.

/Kristian</font>

[Prinz Eugen]

I could do it, but then again, I would think that the Russkies would take unnecessary casualties...Just because I'm so mean...

And hey, isn't it completely realistic too? I recall having once read how a Soviet general described their inf tactics to Patton (or somefink) thus : "Minefields? No matter. After we have sent the first attack wave, the second will have it easier, who, in turn pave the way for the third wave..."

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen:

I recall having once read how a Soviet general described their inf tactics to Patton (or somefink) thus : "Minefields? No matter. After we have sent the first attack wave, the second will have it easier, who, in turn pave the way for the third wave..."

I wouldn't take that literally. It's more like the Soviet general telling indirectly how incredibly mighty the Red Army is. Read: no matter about the casualties, we will always have the next wave. Nothing will stop us.

At least that's how I'd interpret it. Well, ofcourse, I could be wrong.

Ari

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

[QB]I wouldn't take that literally. It's more like the Soviet general telling indirectly how incredibly mighty the Red Army is. Read: no matter about the casualties, we will always have the next wave. Nothing will stop us.

At least that's how I'd interpret it. Well, ofcourse, I could be wrong.

Could be that, then again it could show how high one, single life was valued in the former USSR...Jeez ! Hard to tell, though.

I'm sure this wasn't a common rule, but it's hard to imagine that this did not happen in any circumstances ? They did, atleast in the Winter War , walk in lines, side by side towards our Maxims, not caring for the casualties...Then again, with commissars around, those poor ill-trained Soviet troops would be dodging both German AND Soviet bullets. "Do not retreat. Do NOT retreat ! " Incredible load of bull.

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Prinz Eugen:

Could be that, then again it could show how high one, single life was valued in the former USSR...Jeez !

Well yep, all I know about totalitarian countries indicates that the basic human rights and thus human life are not highly valued in such places. Fits to the former USSR too. The attempt to produce Homo Sovieticus paid millions of lives.

I'm sure this wasn't a common rule, but it's hard to imagine that this did not happen in any circumstances ?

Very likely it happened. For instance in 1944, during their summer attack on the Finnish front, some Soviet commanders forced men, who couldn’t swim, to cross waters resulting in several drowning accidents. Tells something about the Soviet mentality.

They did, atleast in the Winter War , walk in lines, side by side towards our Maxims, not caring for the casualties...Then again, with commissars around, those poor ill-trained Soviet troops would be dodging both German AND Soviet bullets. "Do not retreat. Do NOT retreat ! " Incredible load of bull.

I knew a man who was in a Finnish machine gun company during the war. He told how gruesome it felt when the Soviet infantry attacked over open areas seemingly dispising death and disregaring losses. Inevitably the machine guns mowed them down, wave by wave, but they just kept attacking (until some incompetent commander finally realized to stop the attack?). I find it easy to believe in similar German battle accounts.

During summer 1944 RKKA still used dense infantry formations in mass attacks on Karelian Isthmus. They utilised "attacking hedgehog defence" tactics. After the initial success it proved to be very costly against the Finns who used small, heavily armed (SMGs, explosives and hand grenades, and fausts once they begun to get them) infantry groups in flanking strikes.

Ari

[kmk24]

I'm just reading, Laguksen miehet - Marskin nyrkki and Laguksen rynnäkkötykit by Erkki Käkelä.

It's really interesting to read

Ryn.Tyk.P. Kills 14.6-21.7.1944 87 enemy tanks and assault guns, loses 8 Stu-40

there's so much to read before CMBB

[ August 01, 2002, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: kmk24 ]

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by tero:

Originally posted by Juha Keratar:

I assume that certain axis allies won't be found on all fronts, but any ideas which ones will be where? ... unit selections in arctic area should realistically be somewhat limited, ...

I think the German units up North will be limited

Don't forget the Swedish volunteers!

... no, wait, that was in the first winter war, before Barbarossa.

Well then, never mind...

/Olle

[Prinz Eugen]

Originally posted by kmk24:

I'm just reading, Laguksen miehet - Marskin nyrkki and Laguksen rynnäkkötykit by Erkki Käkelä.

It's really interesting to read

Ryn.Tyk.P. Kills 14.6-21.7.1944 87 enemy tanks and assault guns, loses 8 Stu-40

And just think, before the purchase of those StuGs we didn't have much tanks to talk about. T-26s, a couple of T-34s and a single KV-1... :eek: Our only tank division wasn't too impressive in terms of number of tanks. Still, they did rather well!

Wonder if the superiority of the Finnish soldier wii´ll be modeled in CM:BB ? They said that a Finn was worth 10 Soviets !

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by kmk24:

I'm just reading, Laguksen miehet - Marskin nyrkki and Laguksen rynnäkkötykit by Erkki Käkelä.

Käkelä is the leading Finnish armour historian and a great writer. His articles are published frequently in Panssari Magazine. He is VERY strict on details. Couple of years ago Käkelä wrote a review of Pekka Kantakoski’s Punaiset Panssarit and basically listed all the little errors he had found and also corrections to them.

I have been hunting for his Laguksen rynnäkkötykit in the old book stores for quite a long time. No luck so far. The book has all the needed information to produce extremely accurate CMBB scenarios of all the battles where the Finnish StuGs were involved. Fascinating stuff. Maybe I have to borrow it from the library again after CMBB is released.

You may also want to get familiar with Lauri Leppänen’s Rynnäkkötykit isänmaamme puolustajina. Leppänen was a gunner and later a tank commander in the Finnish assault gun battalion during the war.

Ryn.Tyk.P. Kills 14.6-21.7.1944 87 enemy tanks and assault guns, loses 8 Stu-40

Note that those 8 losses were total write offs whereas all of the 87 documented kills not necessarily were. That’s unsure because usually the battleground was eventually lost to the enemy.

It’s also interesting to note that the Finns used their StuGs very recklessly. Basically against the German doctrine I guess. Most of the kills were achieved not in ambushes, but in vigorous counterattacks. Perhaps the rare but sudden armoured counterattacks threw the Soviet tank crews off-balance and thus helped the Finns to overcome.

In all fairness it must be said that most counterattacks got finally stopped by the Soviets. A typical simplified pattern for such an attack went like this: A Finnish StuG company (with supporting infantry) counterattacks against a larger advancing RKKA formation and sweeps it’s armoured spearhead. Then the following main body of the Soviet formation stops and rushes in battlestations. Soon the attacking StuGs find themselves in a one-gun-against-ten-guns situation and after taking losses are forced to retreat. After such stop a large Soviet formation was slow to get going again. Some postwar historians believe that the delay resulting from these stops was essential for the whole defence victory on Karelian Isthmus.

The Finns put a big emphasis in the selection of the tank gunners. They were expected to be especially skillful and steel nerved men who knew all the ins and outs of the used tank gun. After all, the lives of the whole crew were depending on the gunner's skill and cold-bloodedness.

And because I have extra energy, here is an almost complete table of the tanks destroyed by the Ryn.Tyk.P. (= Assault gun battalion) during the Soviet summer assault in 1944 (taken from the article “Tehokkaimmat rynnäkkötykkiampujamme kesällä 1944” by Erkki Käkelä, published in Panssari 1/2002):

63 T-34-85

13 ISU-152

3 IS-2

2 T-34

2 KV-1

2 Light tanks

2 Unidentified tanks

Käkelä has made a ton of work by analysing war diaries and interviewing the members of Ryn.Tyk.P. In the article all detroyed tanks are divided by gunner and dates and locations have been added for each tank (except for the unidentified cases).

For instance the most succesful Finnish StuG gunner, Olli Soimala, desroyed 4 T34-85s and 1 ISU-152 at Leitimojärvi on June 25th, 2 T34-85s at Portinhoikka on June 29th, 1 T-34-85 at Vuosalmi on July 7th and 3 more T-34-85s at same place in following day.

Ari