glitch? bug? player stupidity?

[Yggdrasill]

Help me out with this.

I have had this precise situation occur twice, in separate games.

I am playing as the Soviets, mid 43. One of my T-34s targets the second story of a, 150m or so distant tall building containing pesky enemy units. The tank in question is within 15m of a small building, which (of course) contains friendly infantry.

The tank is able to draw LOS to tall building, and targets it--plotted orders show the tall building as the target. We click "Go" and the tank proceeds to shoot "at" tall building but hits adjacent small building, :eek: naturally blowing it up and killing unfortunate friendly infantry. :mad:

I don't understand why I can draw both LOS to and target one building, but when I fire I hit another. Am I missing something here? It takes 3 or 4 shots to blow up the wrong building, so it's not as if the tank commander missed on the first shot and adjusted his angle of fire.

any helpful, or humorously sarcastic responses welcome.

[Terrapin]

My first question is: How often can this POSSIBLY happen? I mean, this is pretty unusual, IMHO.

I think that part of the equation is a PEBKAS problem. Try moving the tank. Or the troops.

Otherwise, they can shoot low, like in hull-down positions, and that's quasi-normal, just bad luck.

[ December 16, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Terrapin ]

[Yggdrasill]

Terrapin,

Sorry, PEBKAS?

How often you ask? One time each in two consecutive games.

And sure, I can move the tank, but by then the damage is done. At such short range, a T-34 makes short work of the adjacent untargetted building (and my squads hiding there).

[Panzer Leader]

Not a bug, been happening all along. When a large cannon fires in close proximity to something else, it can damage or destroy it. Do a search in the CMBO forum for something along the lines of "My Marder took itself out!"

Lengthy replies.

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Yggdrasill:

Sorry, PEBKAS?

Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Seat.

[Yggdrasill]

I appreciate the replies, even the PEBKAS Terrapin .

Could be player error; I should do some tests. But I am pretty sure it isn't since I had to work a bit to be able to draw a LOS to the building I wanted to hit, and double checked both times.

As to Panzer Leader's suggestion that the proximity to the firing unit is destroying the adjacent small building--well, why does that not happen if I'm targeting something else? I've never seen a building blow up just because a nearby gun/AFV fired unless the building itself was the target.

I did a search as PL suggested, but couldn't find anything. Will keep looking.

No, the deal is that I am targetting one building, but hitting another that is between them. That's logical. What isn't is that I can draw an LOS "through" the one to the other. If I can see it, I should be able to shoot it; or, put another way, if I can see "through" it why can I not shoot "through" it?

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Yggdrasill:

What isn't is that I can draw an LOS "through" the one to the other. If I can see it, I should be able to shoot it; or, put another way, if I can see "through" it why can I not shoot "through" it?

Oh, I get it. This IS a PEBKAS problem, if I'm reading correctly.

You've got a line of sight, that goes THROUGH the building, to something on the other side? That's because the tank is tall, and can see over small buildings, but when it fires it doesn't "arc" it OVER the building. It goes into that first building (and, despite your claims, can sometimes go completely through the building).

The LOS is just THAT. A Line of SIGHT . It doesn't guarantee hitting anything.

In the other case, that of the target line showing it as well, it's because the gunner can see the target as well, but anything in the way (like a house) will get in the way of the shot. If you left the AI to it's own device, it won't take that shot (for just this reason), but you ordered it to, so it does it, and takes the house with it. This usually happens when you hit the CORNER of a house, to a difficult target on the other side. In that case, it won't say you "will hit the house", because that kind of data is too accurate for the FOW.

[ December 16, 2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Terrapin ]

[Ted]

I once had a tank behind a building, peaking around the corner and just clearing the side wall of the house I had a clear LOS to some infantry.

Every shot that tank fired hit the house.

I learned to keep some LOS clearance between me and houses when shooting at the enemy.

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Ted:

I once had a tank behind a building, peaking around the corner and just clearing the side wall of the house I had a clear LOS to some infantry.

Every shot that tank fired hit the house.

I learned to keep some LOS clearance between me and houses when shooting at the enemy.

Exactly, because the target line is an ESTIMATE, and is not a laser weapon. By definition, if the shot is off-target, as they are often are, it's off-target from the moment the shot leaves the barrel.

[Yggdrasill]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yggdrasill:

What isn't is that I can draw an LOS "through" the one to the other. If I can see it, I should be able to shoot it; or, put another way, if I can see "through" it why can I not shoot "through" it?

Oh, I get it. This IS a PEBKAS problem, if I'm reading correctly.

You've got a line of sight, that goes THROUGH the building, to something on the other side? That's because the tank is tall, and can see over small buildings, but when it fires it doesn't "arc" it OVER the building. It goes into that first building (and, despite your claims, can sometimes go completely through the building).

The LOS is just THAT. A Line of SIGHT . It doesn't guarantee hitting anything.

In the other case, that of the target line showing it as well, it's because the gunner can see the target as well, but anything in the way (like a house) will get in the way of the shot. If you left the AI to it's own device, it won't take that shot (for just this reason), but you ordered it to, so it does it, and takes the house with it. This usually happens when you hit the CORNER of a house, to a difficult target on the other side. In that case, it won't say you "will hit the house", because that kind of data is too accurate for the FOW.</font>

[Terrapin]

But the LOS and the Target Line are just guides for you. It takes nothing (of the line itself) into account concerning the experience of the gunner. It's telling you that "ideally" the gun *can* hit it, but it never tells you how "difficult" the shot is, just to even get the round near the target. In some cases, in really tight spots, in order to even GET the round over there would require a nearly flawless shot, with no room for error. That's a lot to ask of some gunners who are in a buttoned up tank, and not Crack or Elite.

The other issue is that you want the gunner to correct, mid-turn, to correct the shot so that rounds 2 and 3 don't hit the house. Maybe it should do this, but I'm not sure how much you'd be "saving" by doing it. At most, as is, you simply wait until next turn, move the tank 2 feet forward and shoot again, or (as usually happens) the next turn the gunner may get it right.

As for the troops in the house, Friendly Fire instances aren't exactly rare, and I can see a gunner putting a round into a house in real-life rather easily (and, unlike in the game, the house will go down on the first round, so that 2nd or 3rd round is kind of moot). In the game, the gunner's can't "see" the location of friendly units, which usually isn't a problem, because the player can see the relationships by looking at it, and a human is a lot brighter than any AI is ever going to be.

So, either get your troops out of the house before shooting (in other words, be more careful about where you put your troops in front of very large HE ordnance ), or wait until you're in a better spot to shoot.

[Yggdrasill]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

So, either get your troops out of the house before shooting (in other words, be more careful about where you put your troops in front of very large HE ordnance ), or wait until you're in a better spot to shoot.

That's what I am going to have to do from now on.

Thanks for engaging me on this question.

thor

[tar]

The basic issue is that the line of sight just shows where you want the shot to go. Since shots can miss, it follows that the shell (in case of a miss) does NOT follow the line of sight exactly. When the line of sight is close to some obstacle, that means a missed shot can deviate into that obstacle.

[GreasyPig]

Isn't this along the same lines as achieving "Hull Down" by using the command and then watching your tank use up a full turn driving shells into the dirt? Hmmmmm.... I honestly believe there is something tricky about the LOS tool in general.

GreasyPig