Can SP artillery guns have spotters? + tactics

[Bismarck]

I'm a fairly new CMBO player so this is probably a basic question. Whenever I get SP artillery they seem to die rather quickly. I realize the sp guns are not meant to go against other armoured veichles. But if they can only shoot at targets in their direct line of sight then I'm forced to place them in the front lines. Are they able to shoot indirectly the same way mortars can if they have a HQ unit spotting for them? And does any have any good tactics for using SP guns as either the Axis or Allies?

Thanks

[Silvio Manuel]

No, SP guns can't fire indirectly in CMBO. In CMBB, mortar halftracks will be able to fire indirectly like on-map mortars teams can now in CMBO. However, I think the other SP guns will still be unable to fire indirectly.

SP Arty, such as Wespe, Hummel, Priest, Sexton, etc., are only worth risking when you are quite sure that enemy AT defenses have either been neutralized or you can manuever to where you won't be susceptible to such fire. The 105mm variety are great for taking down builings and digging infantry out of foxholes.

Sexton even has decent AT ability...unlike most SP Arty, it has a decent muzzle velocity: 619m/s- same as the Sherman, but it has the deadlier 88mm gun. Unfortunately, it has no smoke discharger or MG, so it is quite vulnerable vs. enemy armor.

SP Antitank guns, like Marders, M10 TD, Wolverine, etc. are best used in ambush vs. enemy armor. Hopefully their low cost will allow you to deploy them in at least pairs where you'll have a better chance of taking out at least 1 tank and thus get the better of the exchange.

It goes without saying that you shouldn't keep them in one spot for too long or you'll be mortared to death. Also, German SPGs have much to fear when the American .50cal HMGs are around.

[ February 18, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Soddball]

Your best bet if you want a good solid Axis SP Arty gun is the StuH42. Its armour is solid enough to deflect machine gun and light AT gunfire, and its powerful 105mm gun will cause alot of upset amongst enemy infantry.

[Moriarty]

Bismarck, onboard arty (SP or fixed) also cannot use TRPs. Onboard mortars can but only if you don't move them from the setup position.

In CM, you end up using SP arty as thinly armored front-line tanks because the scale of the battle really does not allow you to put them in batteries a mile away for a more historical use.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Your best bet if you want a good solid Axis SP Arty gun is the StuH42. Its armour is solid enough to deflect machine gun and light AT gunfire, and its powerful 105mm gun will cause alot of upset amongst enemy infantry.

I personally much prefer the "early" StuH 42, not the "late" model. While the late model usually has a larger main gun ammo load (perhaps more MG ammo too?), IIRC it has the Nahverteidigungswaffe anti-infantry mortar for close defense...*instead* of the IMHO all-important Smoke Discharger. That baby will save your ass if AT-capable enemy armor shows up...if you keep you head about you, infantry shouldn't be of concern. But if the enemy starts to drop smoke on the StuH, beware of a close assault.

[ February 18, 2002, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Redwolf]

There are not many tactics for SP guns except to treat them like egg shells, possibly hiding them until the whole battlefield is spotted and closed lane of movement have been found.

Things also depend on the opponent. Against Axis, you are immediately toasted if you meet flak guns, including any 20mm vehicle (same for Bofors, but it is rare). Less dangerous because they lack the extreme hit probablity of the flak guns are .50cal MGs, but they are still a major problem because of their number. Against the British you are halfway safe from non-gun direct fire, but then the 2" mortars which usually show up in herds become a problem. Keep moving.

There are some SP arty tactics that might be considered gamey, like area fire on a building without LOS to the target unit or area fire near a gun where the gun has no LOS (by a millimeter).

[Louie the Toad]

To extend what Moriarty is saying:

When you have a 105 Arty Spotter it could be spotting for towed guns or for the Priest 105. It is just that these units will not be on the map. A Priest on the map would have to fire directly, over open sights, because of the close ranges of CM battles.

Sad but True, Toad

[Liebchen]

Originally posted by redwolf:

There are some SP arty tactics that might be considered gamey, like area fire on a building without LOS to the target unit or area fire near a gun where the gun has no LOS (by a millimeter).

Why on Earth would these be considered "gamey"? :confused: It is SOP to lay down covering fire in suspected enemy positions, so as to avoid ambushes or prep them for an assault. It was done all of the time in RL.

[gredeker]

Originally posted by Liebchen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

There are some SP arty tactics that might be considered gamey, like area fire on a building without LOS to the target unit or area fire near a gun where the gun has no LOS (by a millimeter).

Why on Earth would these be considered "gamey"? :confused: It is SOP to lay down covering fire in suspected enemy positions, so as to avoid ambushes or prep them for an assault. It was done all of the time in RL.</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Liebchen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

There are some SP arty tactics that might be considered gamey, like area fire on a building without LOS to the target unit or area fire near a gun where the gun has no LOS (by a millimeter).

Why on Earth would these be considered "gamey"? :confused: It is SOP to lay down covering fire in suspected enemy positions, so as to avoid ambushes or prep them for an assault. It was done all of the time in RL.</font>

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liebchen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

There are some SP arty tactics that might be considered gamey, like area fire on a building without LOS to the target unit or area fire near a gun where the gun has no LOS (by a millimeter).

Why on Earth would these be considered "gamey"? :confused: It is SOP to lay down covering fire in suspected enemy positions, so as to avoid ambushes or prep them for an assault. It was done all of the time in RL.</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

[redwolf- I wouldn't think you'd recommend that I should have elected NOT to blast the ATG...but to do otherwise would be even stranger- who could ignore such a golden opportunity- what would one do, pretend that the RL relative spotting resulted in the tank blundering forward before getting notified of the ATG position on the radio? Besides, the AP shots fired at my HT went right over the StuG (nearly the same bearing).

I do so as well, I was just pointing out other people had complained in the past. The knock-down-the-building business has gotten a bit out of hand as well.

However, the current CM engine cannot do better and it is not that much of a problem except when somebody hits Alt-A in the middle of your game, being outraged by something you wouldn't in your dreams considered unfair.

[Silvio Manuel]

I hear ya.

In the same battle, the StuG IV I mentioned teamed up w/ a PSW 234/3 that had only a sliver of LOS to a large bldg my opp. had a whole Pn in. I intentionally found 1 little spot where the AC was again shielded from all possible ATG sites, and still had LOS to the big house...the AC & StuG took it down in 1 turn (heavy bldg).

That's a bit ridiculous, considering that no real AFV section could pull it off w/ such absurd speed, efficiency, and pinpoint vehicle positioning. Then again, this is only a game.

Back to the SP arty...

I once knew my opp. had a Panzer IV in a certain spot. I ordered my Priest to loop around from my rear to the right, then fwd to the left behind some bldgs where it could terrorize some Heer boys. I fully new that the order would take the Priest briefly thru the Panzer's LOS, but hey, it was an M7B1 (faster), and the Panzer should only have gotten off 1 shot vs. a (admittedly *large*) moving target a good 500m away.

What happened...the damned Priest crew stops their 'rig as soon as they see the Mark IV...and (slowly) turn 30 deg. to engage it w/ the 105mm gun. The Priest actually took a non-fatal hit that killed a crewman, then got brewed up w/ the next shot. Boy was I pissed- damned TacAI...you can't game w/ it, you can't game w/o it. In the same game, I had a 60mm fire smoke instead of the requested HE, and a Bofors not fire at all vs. the aforementioned Panzer. that was only the start of my (newbie) bad luck that game...you have to learn what troops will *actually* do in CM.

[ February 19, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Louie the Toad]

I only have two words to say:

Blast Radius

Handgrenades and Horseshoes Toad

[Caesar]

I have a particular liking for Wespes and so will use them often. I have found that the best way to keep them alive is to keep them moving. Let's face it - they are mobile guns - so keep them mobile. I tend to move them into firing position, fire for a turn and move out of sight. It tends to stop things like mortars, arty etc taking them out. For 50 pts you get a big gun with a decent ROF that moves quite fast.

[Ex Bellator]

I recommend holding SP guns back until at least halfway thru the battle when the AT threat should be more apparent or possibly neutralised.

They are great for smashing infantry away from objectives towards the end of the game, for example in QB M/Es you can let your opponent grab objectives early, then roll out the SPG to blow them away.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I recommend holding SP guns back until at least halfway thru the battle when the AT threat should be more apparent or possibly neutralised.

They are great for smashing infantry away from objectives towards the end of the game, for example in QB M/Es you can let your opponent grab objectives early, then roll out the SPG to blow them away.

I couldn't agree more. Holding them back usually means that the OPFOR AT threat may have been neutralized by that point. A Wespe/Priest/StuH moving out of cover and nailing some 'crunchies' is great for Shock Effect.

Also, if you hold them back until the 2nd half, its more likely that your opp. will have spent his on-map mortars on MGs, inf., etc. a

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I recommend holding SP guns back until at least halfway thru the battle when the AT threat should be more apparent or possibly neutralised.

They are great for smashing infantry away from objectives towards the end of the game, for example in QB M/Es you can let your opponent grab objectives early, then roll out the SPG to blow them away.

The problem with this tactic is that it weakens your first-game-half force. If the opponent has a force completely composed of universal units, he will be stronger in this phase. Chances are that you never enter the phase where you can operate your SP artillery after having eliminated enemy tanks and TDs, because by probablity you are the one running out of AT asserts before he does.

Did I mention I like real tanks?

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I recommend holding SP guns back until at least halfway thru the battle when the AT threat should be more apparent or possibly neutralised.

They are great for smashing infantry away from objectives towards the end of the game, for example in QB M/Es you can let your opponent grab objectives early, then roll out the SPG to blow them away.

The problem with this tactic is that it weakens your first-game-half force. If the opponent has a force completely composed of universal units, he will be stronger in this phase. Chances are that you never enter the phase where you can operate your SP artillery after having eliminated enemy tanks and TDs, because by probablity you are the one running out of AT asserts before he does.

Did I mention I like real tanks? </font>

[Silvio Manuel]

Gotta luv 'em...you can suntan in them, and unlike the a real tank, you'll have no problems breathing in one if you espouse the "if you've got 'em, smoke 'em" mentality.

Dunno about being in one during a Russian winter...the ranges on the steppes might be right, but who likes losing fingers and toes to the cold?

[ February 21, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I recommend holding SP guns back until at least halfway thru the battle when the AT threat should be more apparent or possibly neutralised.

They are great for smashing infantry away from objectives towards the end of the game, for example in QB M/Es you can let your opponent grab objectives early, then roll out the SPG to blow them away.

That should work...unless the enemy holds his AT-capable AFVs back until the end of the game as well.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

The problem with this tactic is that it weakens your first-game-half force. If the opponent has a force completely composed of universal units, he will be stronger in this phase.

I like SPG's- I guess the idea of being in one (esp. a Marder) in RL piques my interest- you have to have brains and balls to not get killed in those "purple heart boxes," to steal a phrase used to describe the U.S. halftracks.

</font>

[Thermopylae]

Just as a side note, SPGs en masse could very well be considered gamey. For instance a platoon of priests. Would you put 10% of your division's artillery directly into a tactical fight on te battalion level? Of course, one or two probably wouldn't be amiss.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Thermopylae:

Just as a side note, SPGs en masse could very well be considered gamey. For instance a platoon of priests. Would you put 10% of your division's artillery directly into a tactical fight on te battalion level? Of course, one or two probably wouldn't be amiss.

According to George Forty's "US Army Handbook" (I don't know where my second edition copy is, so I looked in the first, but I don't think it will have changed) three M7s (together with a couple of half-tracks and some ammunition trailers) appear in the assault gun platoon of a US Army armored infantry battalion. Since I think CM:BO players should fight in HC elements (HC here = "historically correct" -- like "politically-correct", but very slightly less whiney), three is a less gamey number of Priests to have than one or two.

What might very well be considered "gamey" is the use of 25-pdr (SP or towed) artillery "on-table" in the direct-fire role. As far as I'm aware, no towed 25-pdr battery fought a direct-fire battle in the NW Europe campaign, indeed I believe none did after 155 Battery's last stand at Sidi Nsir with 5 Hampshires on 26 Feb 1943. The only time I have heard of 25-pdr SPs firing direct was at Villers-Bocage, where the record of amn expended in the war diary for Mercer's Troop shows that 1 (one) round of AP was fired, though it is not claimed to have hit anything.

Anyway, the graphic for the towed 25-pounder bears no resemblance to the real appearance of this handsome and magnificent gun, so it's best not to use them on aesthetic grounds.

All the best,

John.

[JasonC]

The gamey Americans made extensive use of Priests in direct fire roles. I can quote you chapter and verse on any number of engagements in which they were pressed into such service, and acquitted themselves well. A number of them during the Bulge, when the Priests effectively formed a second line behind the armor, and held off strong attacks by German tank-infantry teams - HE to strip off the infantry, HEAT against the tanks. And earlier in the Lorraine fighting, Priests traveling right up with the armor columns often got into scrapes with counterattacking German armor, over open sights.

The Americans also used Sherman 105s for indirect fire, regularly. M8HMCs were used in both roles, as well. The hard and fast distinction some are suggesting here, between SPA which only ever fires indirect, and armor or assault guns which only fire direct, simply was not acknowledged by the American army. Even towed ATGs were used for indirect fire, for lack of German armor and defensive fighting to use them in the doctrinal manner.

As for the Germans, they used the Wespe and Hummel true SPA almost exclusively for indirect fire - that much is correct. But they had other vehicles for the direct fire jobs. StuH rather than Wespes, for example (although really, the SPW-251/9 is a more accurate substitute), and "Bison" or "Cricket" model self-propelled 150mm sIG guns rather than Hummels. The latter is not in CM. The gun is lower velocity, but a Hummel is the best way to simulate them in CM.

Every mobile division had 6 of those SP 150mm sIG vehicles in each panzergrenadier regiment, so you'd expect 2 per SS or 3 per Heer Panzergrenadier battalion. For lighter direct fire, they also had 12 SPW-251/9s per regiment, thus 4-6 of those expected per panzergrenadier battalion. The divisional recon battalion had additional SPW-251/9s in their heavy weapons company. These were all meant to be used in an assault gun role, firing direct on enemy strongpoints, MG nests, houses, etc.