Biltongs Campaign Rules for CMBB - 41 South ready for action

[Screeny]

Hey all,

Here some points I noticed playing around with these rules. 90% I understand and they work fine, the remaining 10% I either really don't understand how to use it or I think how to use them but somehow this feeling I'm doing something wrong. well I decied now that I will not bother any one with question, afterall the rules are for any individual himself so I go along using the rules as I think they work best for me.

I played my first battle and I lost totally (actually I did some probing the first 8 9 rounds and then figured out I was facing arouind 12 Russian tanks, and a couple of guns and infantery of which I knew they were there but no idea on the exact positions, me having no Panzer what so ever....so I just sad down and clicked go untill the end of teh game.) gaining experience takes quite long indeed but I guess that's realistic and the challenging part of the campaign (not like in the PG series where the first 5, 6 battles are challenging, there after the units are so experienced the remaining battles are a cakewalk).

On Scrounged units: At the end of the battle I calculate the points and have the rule for myself I can do with them what ever I want: buy new units straight ahead or save them for later.

Aux units: been reading and asking a lot about this issue, I geenrate a qb battle with the parameters that came up. the units on the battlefield I write down (well not complete mostly I just scan it fast writing down the companies, the armour and the artilley, afinally I check what individual units the AI picked.)

Then in generating the real battle I pick my core force (incl any scrougned units still haven't got any tough) then I check the parameters sheet (nr 28/31) and I allow myself only to pick from the aux units pool I previous generated and within the given points stated in the parametersheet (28/31). Only on air support I pick as many points as possible as within the given points in the parametersheet (31). Then I roll the dice and use rule 56 for there experience. I noticed that air support is not that effective (first battle I had 2 Stuka's and strafing Me 109.....only 1 enemy tank had been knocked out in 37 rounds....).

So I probabaly ain't playing completly by the rules but it works some what for me. I guess i'll be playing 1 or 2 more battles and then start over again and play it as serious as possible. For now I'm learning to fight on open steppe terrain which is hell (really wonder how the Germans did that in real life 60 years ago..) and learning to use the rules as they suit me best.

So much for my experiences with this rules (even if I don't get them 100% and I chenged them a bit imho they are awesome!!)

gr

Screeny

[Apache]

Biltong,

I'll give it a go and will try to monitor the posts in case the FAQs crop up elsewhere. As the threads get closed up when they get full you could perhaps create a fresh until such stage as the posts dry up. Perhaps keep it at the Biltongs Rule Set queries or something like that.

Will be some time before i Get the first version out on Word. mega busy at work.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

Biltong,

I'll give it a go and will try to monitor the posts in case the FAQs crop up elsewhere. As the threads get closed up when they get full you could perhaps create a fresh until such stage as the posts dry up. Perhaps keep it at the Biltongs Rule Set queries or something like that.

Will be some time before i Get the first version out on Word. mega busy at work.

Ahh Thanx Apache

Once you've got a batch together - e-mail to me and I'll approach the web masters Henrik/Scooby/Snarker to post them....

You're gioing to make everyone's life easier - esp mine

Guys - I'm spending some time on the exp prob - c'ya

[Biltong]

MODIFIER CHANGE

Helmut sent me some notes regarding the prevalence of Meeting Engagements during 41 South... No clear proof, but at the same time I noticed that ME's had only a 1 out of 10 chance of ever happening...

I replied to his mail with this:

G'damn - we can really do with the help of a Grog....

At the start of Barbarossa the average company had to Assault/Attack to break through the Russian lines and the Russians had to do the same from 2nd week Dec onwards... so I keep the date loading, but increase the chance of a ME being selected, as follows:

3 BATTLE TYPE

< 2 Axis Assault

2 Axis Attack

3 Axis Probe

4-6 Meeting Engagement

7 Allied Probe

8 Allied Attack

8 > Allied Assault

So you'll have 30% chance of a ME when there are no date modifiers in action. - My gut feel is that this is too much, but I like the idea of a bit more ME's - The old 1 out of 10 would mean we would be defending/attacking most of the time... I better post this change to warn the guys and we'll see if someone picks up on this and queries the historical accuracy of the change.

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

I did some more thinking about the "experience problem"...

...

Also, should there really be negative experience for say abandoning your mortar or fleeing the map? Do the troops get less experienced by being broken? Say you have a Crack 50mm mortar team (60 exp). During a battle they get the hell bombed out of them, their mortar gets knocked out, their position is being overrun by a red horde, they break and panic, and flee off the map, all 3 men survive. In the next battle, they will be Veterans (46 exp)? That seems odd to me.

Thought I would quickly answer this one before going off to bed...

In the case of abandoned or KO'd Equipment (no longer just mortars - more about that later) the crews does not really suffer "experience loss" - it's more a loss of effectiveness: morale/face/trustworthyness/selfconfidence/edge/risk taking/battle efficiency etc etc - get the drift? Co and mates look at the guys who abandoned their MG/Mortar/Gun and ran - there goes the "cowards" - even if this is just in the crews own mind...

As for Exp Gain Problem - nearly there

G'night

[Sardaukar]

I think that these rules are easily modified for armoured campaign core too. Experience gain should be toned down, especially after reaching regular. Aux infantry maybe doubled or at least 50 % increase (I'm thinking about all armoured core). Chances for meeting engagement/probe/attack increased. Chances to meet mechanized enemy increased. I think with these modifications it'd be totally playable.

What do you think ?

Cheers,

M.S.

[TomL]

Hi all,

I just finished my first battle. I had to assault through wet, dense forest, combined with dense fog! Not the best start for my green boys (Major Defeat). And I got the orders for an immediate assault... oh well.

Now I have a question about the handling of the gaind experience. After the first battle my core sheet shows a fine assortement of conscript, green and regular squads. How am I supposed to implement this mix in my next battle? in QB I can only chose one experience level for the whole coy. Must I take the average experience or am I supposed to use the scenario editor, to be able to edit every single squad?

How do you handle your experience point mix? Tell me what I'm missing.

MJO

[Sardaukar]

That will be a problem when playing with infantry company. Individual platoons might be better, but then you lose company commander. That is one of the reason I started to play with armoured core, since one can buy individual vehicles and track individual crew experience. Since one cannot buy single squads, I think tracking average experience is the way to go. Of course it's possible to edit units with scen editor and import troops with map too, but it's more time consuming task. And you have to import that map too, which can be pain in butt since you need to set flags and setup areas yourself...thus losing lot of randomness in battle.

Cheers,

M.S.

[SuperSulo]

As I said, I've been trying out using the scenario editor for the campaign, and the only "problem" so far is the flag placement/numbers. If you save a template scenario with your core force + scrounged units on it, it's just about as quick as the "old" system, but with all the benefits of being able to track individual experience and so on. I really think this is the way to go.

[Sardaukar]

What I really miss is ability to import troops only to QB. That would allow easy dynamic long campaign. I find scen editor's map generation bit tedious for that purpose, especially with size and setup. Oh well, maybe BFC hears my whining . But doing things via scenario editor is a must if one wants to play infantry core campaign.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Culex Pipiens]

i will like to have thee rules.

can someone please sent me them to.

darione@iol.it

thanx

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by Culex Pipiens:

i will like to have thee rules.

can someone please sent me them to.

darione@iol.it

thanx

Go through whole thread and you'll find several adresses to download them.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Apache]

Extracted to here for FAQs (sorry to do it this way, will help me keep track of what's been done)

[Biltong]

Just want to thank Claude McDaniel for his sterling work as official PLQ (Protector of Language Quality for BCR

Chris e-mailed the following feedback:

1. on the favor sheet there is no provision for infantry casualties, this has led to my winning a total victory and ending up with -18 favor (the russians had little but infantry, therefore their casulaties were not accuratly reflected in the favor sheet)

This point has come up before, but at the moment I'm working on a related problem: Too much Experience Gain.

After this I must work on the Map Import function....

Then - hopefully

2. both the favor and core sheets seem hellish complicated and could use simplification

Ahh - I tend to agree - Initially it was quite simple, but as questions came up and I wanted to clarify it for new guys it grew into a bit of a monster.... It needs a good edit

3. the replacements to core unit procedure is unclear

Umm - too many "Notes" heh?

See answer above...

I've got a document in place where I keep track of questions... And a problem soon shows up in the frequency it's mentioned.... I've got a Dec holiday coming up and that might be a good time for a house cleaning job

Thanx for the feedback Chris

Biltong

[ November 21, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[SuperSulo]

Dug this one up from the depth of page 4...

New version out, 21 nov 2002,get it here:

http://w1.211.telia.com/~u21117402/biltong/

[JaegerMeister]

Hi, this is great, but i have a couple of queries:

.

1) parameter 50: CO dies...am i reading this right? Does only 1 casualty to CO HQ mean the CO is dead? I dont quite get this one cos it lists 1 to 6 casualties. Do you not have to roll a certain number for him to be killed out of those casualties?

2) Starting experience for units:- where do i find this?..i thought in first battle they start on 0 and work upwards, but i think somewhere in the rules it mentions a value of 5 for infantry and 10 for armour..is this what i should use? Also, where do i enter this figure?..in the QB generator?...or do i use Appendix A&B for experience?

3) If i select the infantry company for core force in next battle, how do i assign different experience to each squad?...doesn't it assign 'green' to all units? or can i edit them individually?

4) oh, and when filling out the 'favor' sheet, do i list all losses including any auxillaries that were kia, k.o. etc or just my core & scrounged?

Thanks in advance.

[ November 22, 2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: JaegerMeister ]

[JaegerMeister]

Hello anybody?...can anyone please answer the above queries? (even an educated guess), i'd like to get on to the next battle...its got me hooked !!

[[Wiking]]

Empire@email.si

Send them my way!

[roadkill]

Hi, I had 2 question about the Aux. force generation, that I was hoping someone could help me with:

1. What do you do when the Aux. force "pool" that the computer buys doesn't "fit" your actual allocated Aux. force size? i.e. the units the computer buys are too expensive for the actual points allocated to that area (armour, infantry, etc.)

Example: I've come across situations in which I was barely able to 'afford' anything of what the computer bought, or had to "downsize" (computer bought batallions, and I barely had enough points to afford a single platoon). If I can't afford anything of a particular group (armour, inf., etc.), am I then free to buy whatever I want?

2. Are you free to spend any "left over" points after buying what you can from the Aux. force "pool"?

As an aside, the computer when creating the Aux force bought pioneers every single time, and in 3/4 iterations bought entire pioneer batallions! :eek: I think there may be a glitch in how it buys things - definitely not enough randomness...

Thanks...

[SuperSulo]

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

Hi, this is great, but i have a couple of queries:

.

1) parameter 50: CO dies...am i reading this right? Does only 1 casualty to CO HQ mean the CO is dead? I dont quite get this one cos it lists 1 to 6 casualties. Do you not have to roll a certain number for him to be killed out of those casualties?

No, it means: If CO HQ has 1 casualty AND you roll a 1, your CO is dead and you get a new one which starts with -50 favor. If the HQ has 2 casualties, you have to roll < 3 for the CO to die and so on.

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

2) Starting experience for units:- where do i find this?..i thought in first battle they start on 0 and work upwards, but i think somewhere in the rules it mentions a value of 5 for infantry and 10 for armour..is this what i should use? Also, where do i enter this figure?..in the QB generator?...or do i use Appendix A&B for experience?

Hmm I too remember having read somewhere you start with exp 5 for infantry and 10 for armor, but with the new experience table (21 nov), exp 5 is conscript for infantry. So I guess you should start with 10 for both infantry and armor. You write it down in the "Exp Before Battle" column on the core sheet. Yes, you use the Appendix A&B to see what Experience Level your units should have.

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

3) If i select the infantry company for core force in next battle, how do i assign different experience to each squad?...doesn't it assign 'green' to all units? or can i edit them individually?

This is a real problem... You can't change the individual experience level for the squads in a company in the QB generator. You can either just take the average level of your company (there will be some random changes to their experience when the battle starts anyway),

OR

Use the scenario editor to generate the next battle map and add your company to it. There you can edit the squads individual level. But you have to place the flags, set up correct map dimensions and setup zones yourself... When that is done you load this map in the QB generator and select "Import units". Yes, it's a "bit" more complicated, but the only way to do it, afaik.

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

4) oh, and when filling out the 'favor' sheet, do i list all losses including any auxillaries that were kia, k.o. etc or just my core & scrounged?

ALL units, aux too.

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

Thanks in advance.

My pleasure.

[SuperSulo]

Originally posted by roadkill:

Hi, I had 2 question about the Aux. force generation, that I was hoping someone could help me with:

1. What do you do when the Aux. force "pool" that the computer buys doesn't "fit" your actual allocated Aux. force size? i.e. the units the computer buys are too expensive for the actual points allocated to that area (armour, infantry, etc.)

Example: I've come across situations in which I was barely able to 'afford' anything of what the computer bought, or had to "downsize" (computer bought batallions, and I barely had enough points to afford a single platoon). If I can't afford anything of a particular group (armour, inf., etc.), am I then free to buy whatever I want?

Yes, you buy a platoon instead of a battalion and so on. Just make sure you buy the correct type of platoon, ie one that was actually bought by the computer. If you get very little points for say infantry/support, like 25, you can for instance buy a HMG or mortar from that battalion.

Originally posted by roadkill:

2. Are you free to spend any "left over" points after buying what you can from the Aux. force "pool"?

Yes, if say you rolled up Infantry Force Mix, and rolled up 200 pts Armor, you get to buy whatever you want/can afford under the armor section, since the Auto QB wont have bought you any armor.

Originally posted by roadkill:

As an aside, the computer when creating the Aux force bought pioneers every single time, and in 3/4 iterations bought entire pioneer batallions! :eek: I think there may be a glitch in how it buys things - definitely not enough randomness...

Thanks...

Yes, there actually IS a bug (or feature some would say ) in the buying "AI". It should be fixed in v1.1.

[Biltong]

Hi Guys,

Latest update – 21 Nov – now available at:

Scooby’s: http://members.shaw.ca/gregaman/Biltongs_CMBB_Rules.html and

SuperSulo: http://w1.211.telia.com/~u21117402/biltong/

Listened to what you guys had to say and decided on the following:

I concentrated on the Experience Gain Problem

Most changes to the

Core Sheet.

Max 10 point gain per battle – that should take care of the genocidal Inf Gun

More Experience Points needed to progress up the ranks for Inf/Support

Overall Exp Gain – halved

Own & Enemy Casualties +1 only

The aim of all the above to ensure at least 8 battles before a Green progresses to a Regular etc.

Better (I hope) headings/color coding/notes etc for newbies

Rules:

Most important changes to 36 Handicap & Appendix A.

Quite a bit of language changes - mostly to do with clarifications and more exact language etc

Fixed errors here and there

Next – test Max BrauHaus's Auto Rules - ye gotta see this... Thsis is going to save us hours (beside being real pretty)

Then - answer posts

Then – MAPS - finally

Lot of work there – might be some time...

Then the ‘No Favor for Inf Kills’ problem

After that – maybe I’ll play a couple of battles myself

BTW guys – might be a good idea if we keep a single thread running for BCR…

When it gets full I’ll start a new one with the various update sites as the first post – should help:

All concerned to keep track of what’s happening;

Make it easier for me and Apache (FAQ) to keep track, list and answer all questions

That reminds me – thanx to SuperSulo & co who are helping out with the newbies – much appreciated

Biltong

[ November 22, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[JaegerMeister]

Many thanks supersulo, much obliged !

[SaTyR]

AutoRules... not 100% sure what that means but IF I guess correctly (but I guess I do and two guesses make one right, or sumfink) we'll all be happily surprised. Keep up the good work, I've had plenty of fun with the rules so far.

[Max BrauHaus]

I've just sent off the latest version of my Auto Rules to Biltong with some questions for clarification. When we get those resolved, I don't see anything blocking them from being posted (I did some pretty thourough testing tonight), but I'll let Biltong have the final say.