1941 German Tactics against Russian Tanks

[laxx]

** edited. the previous subject header was "Gamey Tank Tactics" But the threads seem to focus on June 1941 German tactics against Russian Tanks. So.... ***

Hi,

i find that straight head to head (frontal) tank battles in CMBB as germans are quite suicidal, based on Panzer IV, IV L/70, JagD Panzer, StuG etc versus KV-1, IS-2, T-34, T-44, SP-70.

I tried a few defensive scenarios of dawn/dusk with hull down with/or hiding behind woods, in scattered trees without much success against Russian armor in frontal battles. (6 veteran german versus 8 regular russians tanks.)

I even tried to put my IVs in constant forward/reverse movements so as make it harder to be shot at, this at about 1600 to 2000m ranges between the tanks.

Well, needless to say, rounds bounced off the Russian frontal amour (unless the L/70 got lucky). And even at great distances, the Russian tanks got better accuracy at firing as each minutes passed.

Reading up on some of the earlier post later, I did, however, have some good successes (Total, Major and Tactical) with the following tactics:

- using sharpshooters to shoot Tank Commanders, thus forcing hatches closed and thereby limiting the field of vision of the russian tanks. I suspect Light Russians tanks may even abandon the tank due to 1 person turret.

- setting up (during setup) or moving my tanks into various ambushes points in ground depressions, or behind woods. Hiding and waiting for the closed hatched tanks to go past before coming out and blasting them from the sides and from the back.

Thus, in a 3000m x 400m scenario, I would have about 3 tank teams setup along the fairway so to speak. Usually, the weakest tanks (those L/24s) would be first, followed by IV L/48s, and lastly a tank team of perhaps IV L/70s. Needless to say, the first team is usually the sacrificial lamb, but usually able to put out 1 to 2 Russian tanks out of action, or abandoned).

My questions:

- Were sharpshooters often used to kill enemy tank commanders ? Was this in German doctorine ? Also, I have yet to find any references of sharpshooter/armor collaboration this way.

- Were tank vs tank ambush common in the eastern front ? And were there actual tank battles without combined arms ?

- Are my tactics too gamey ?

cheers

laxx

[ November 12, 2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Redwolf]

I have to say I don't se the problem in first place.

You say the problem is the Sovs are too strong?

[laxx]

RedWolf:

Yes for Frontal Long Range Attrition Battles (KV-1s, T-34s, IS-2 VERSUS Panzer IVs and StuGs). Where the numbers are 1 to 1 or slightly less than 1, in my case, 6 vet versus 8 russians regulars.

But the question isn't about that but more the historical aspect of it and a validation of the tactics used above.

laxx

[ November 11, 2002, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by laxx:

I even tried to put my IVs in constant forward/reverse movements so as make it harder to be shot at

Somewhat harder to be shot at, but ten times harder to hit anything, n'est-ce pas?

Eden

[laxx]

Eden,

also known as TopHat / LowSky method of using multiple tanks to moving in and out of Line of Sight of Enemy. This will make it harder for the enemy tanks to engage and also a great diversionary tactic where other tank teams can flank the enemy tanks.

It did not work for me, my guess is that 4 enemy tanks versus 1 tank doing a tophat/lowsky isgonna get lucky.

[Frunze]

I'm not convinced the Soviet tanks are so much better either. In some cases they have thicker armor, but they are often less accurate at long ranges.

If you think you're outmatched, though, those are good tactics, IMO, and not gamey. I'm not speaking from any great knowledge of the Eastern Front, though, just that people have been doing that kind of thing all along to take out Panthers with Shermans in CMBO.

[86smopuim]

I was pretty much unable to lose, as german, with 6 vet Panzer IV/70s, or Panver IVG(late) versus

any 8 of the types of tanks mentioned. Heck I never even lost a single tank.

The panzer IVG(early) didnt do too well.

Straight frontal assualt, no cover, no hull down.

No snipers, no trees. 600 or 2000meters.

What the hell you doing wrong out there soldier?

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by laxx:

also known as TopHat / LowSky method of using multiple tanks to moving in and out of Line of Sight of Enemy. This will make it harder for the enemy tanks to engage and also a great diversionary tactic where other tank teams can flank the enemy tanks.

Cool, some education for me! ( Where do they get these names? )

In your first post you didn't mention moving "in and out of LOS"... that makes it a bit different.

Now are you saying that all your tanks are moving in & out *at the same time* ? Or just the one that's currently targetted?

If I have mutli tanks on an enemy tank, I will pull the one being targetted out, in the case where the enemy tank is utterly uber, like a KV or something, so my only chance is to not get hit. But I've never even considered moving *all* of them back 'n' forth constantly. Is that what you mean?

Eden

[laxx]

86smopuim ,

*sigh*

i am trying to capture the initial barbarossa atmosphere: back in 1941, panzer III and IVs (the short nose) version went up against the bulk of the russian army. The III had L/45 while the IVs were mainly L/24 versions.

Yesterday, I replayed June 1941 scenario: 6 veteran IIIH versus 9 regulars (3 KV-1, 1 KV-2, 2 T34s, the rest being T-26s and other light tanks). I used the method described earlier, shooting from back and flanks.

T-26s and Light tanks died early with one or two shots.

T-34s died with several rounds in the back hull/turret

KVs refuse to die, rounds simply bounced off them.

In the end, it was down to 4 IIIH versus 4 KVs in a 51/49 draw.

Of coss in hindsight it was not a realistic composition, i think in reality it would have been 1 KV with a couple of T34s followed by light tanks.

I wonder how the german tanks responded to the KVs with IIIs and short-nosed IVs.

anyway, will try to add in IVs in the same scenario i created.

cheers!

[laxx]

Hi Eden,

do a search in this section for tophat or lowsky. it is described better and in detail. But essentially what you described is correct. I might add that scoot and shoot is quite good to execute this movement. The Shoot part will be able to Reverse as well.

Icame up with the following based on what I have read so far on this most-excellent forum, please critique:

If you have weak armoured tanks or tanks without good blast values:

versus Numerically superior tanks

---------------------------

- ambush for flanks shots

- kill tank commanders with sharpshooters

versus Numerically lesser tanks

-------------------------

- Bum Rush

- tophat/lowsky

- ambush for flanks

Other rules:

----------

- hull down

- Work in Pairs or More

- Guess your opponents approach

- Distract with PIAT / Shreks **

- pay attention to statistics, RoT, Armour, Length

- Stick to edges of the map

- use Fast/Hunt rather than Move (walking speed)

[Tripps]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by laxx:

also known as TopHat / LowSky method of using multiple tanks to moving in and out of Line of Sight of Enemy. This will make it harder for the enemy tanks to engage and also a great diversionary tactic where other tank teams can flank the enemy tanks.

Cool, some education for me! ( Where do they get these names? )

In your first post you didn't mention moving "in and out of LOS"... that makes it a bit different.

Now are you saying that all your tanks are moving in & out *at the same time* ? Or just the one that's currently targetted?

If I have mutli tanks on an enemy tank, I will pull the one being targetted out, in the case where the enemy tank is utterly uber, like a KV or something, so my only chance is to not get hit. But I've never even considered moving *all* of them back 'n' forth constantly. Is that what you mean?

Eden</font>

[Tripps]

Originally posted by laxx:

86smopuim ,

*sigh*

i am trying to capture the initial barbarossa atmosphere: back in 1941, panzer III and IVs (the short nose) version went up against the bulk of the russian army. The III had L/45 while the IVs were mainly L/24 versions.

Yesterday, I replayed June 1941 scenario: 6 veteran IIIH versus 9 regulars (3 KV-1, 1 KV-2, 2 T34s, the rest being T-26s and other light tanks). I used the method described earlier, shooting from back and flanks.

T-26s and Light tanks died early with one or two shots.

T-34s died with several rounds in the back hull/turret

KVs refuse to die, rounds simply bounced off them.

In the end, it was down to 4 IIIH versus 4 KVs in a 51/49 draw.

Of coss in hindsight it was not a realistic composition, i think in reality it would have been 1 KV with a couple of T34s followed by light tanks.

I wonder how the german tanks responded to the KVs with IIIs and short-nosed IVs.

anyway, will try to add in IVs in the same scenario i created.

cheers!

Think you'll find they had the same problem you are having now

Call in the air support, and bring up the 88's was the general cry when coming up against KV's.

My impression is the Germans were pretty shocked and worried when they first encountered T34's and KV's, and apart from the 2 methods above, when they were not available a couple of the only good things going for the Germans is they were more experienced, and had better communication between the AFV's (radios), so would outflank, ambush, and whatever they could at the time until aircraft and AT guns were available.

I was reading somewhere the Russians learned to fear the StugIII's, probably the F&G series, and would back off when encountering these, but that wasnt until '42 onwards.

cheers

[laxx]

tripps, you are right,

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/kv1/kv1.htm

I am quoting verbatim from the above:

Quote On:

KVs in action

-----------

While many crews were unexperienced with the new tank, some were able to make the German to pay a heavy price for their advance. Here they are some accounts:

Extracts from Thomas Jentz's "Panzertruppen", vol. 1 (posted on the Tanker's Forum by Dr. Leo Niehorster)

6. Panzer-Division war diary, 25 June 41

"Unfortunately, the Russian 52 ton heavy tanks showed that it was almost insensitive to hits from the 10.5cm [field howitzer]. Several hits from a 15cm [field howitzer] were ineffective and bounced off. "

"... a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route ... An 8.8cm Flak battery was sent up by the commander to fight this tank. It was just as unseccessful as the 10.5cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition, an attempt by a Pionier assault troop using balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire."

3. Panzer-Division war diary, 10 Jan 42

"It is noteworthy that the Pz-III ... hit a T34 tank driving along the village street at a range of about 20 meters and four times at a range of 50 meters with 5cm Pzgr 40 without observing any effect."

12. Panzer-Division war diary, 30 March 42

"... encountered a 52 ton tank and a T34. Under the covering fire from one Panzer, the other pair circled to the left and from a range of 50 to 80 meters opened fire on the enemy tanks. All three Pz-IV scored hits that showed no effect other than on the enemy morale.... the 53 ton ton tank drove off at high speed ... the T34 followed him."

Hit over 30(!) times only on the turret side (without any sign of penetration), this KV model 1940

(with F-32 gun, 39 calibres long) was finished by side hit by an 88

The only way the Germans were able to achieve successes against the heavies in the early months was

1. by concentrating the fire of many tanks, in some cases an entire battalion (!) at ranges of 100 meters or less, which in many cases only caused damage.

2. by maneouvering to the flanks and rear and opening fire at ranges of 50 meters or less, which in many cases again only caused immobilization.

3. by coordinated fire on the tanks of all weapons, (which destroyed or separated the enemy infantry). Infantry and pioneers would then climb up on isolated or immobilzed enemy tanks and apply bundled stick grenades to less impervious areas, such as turret overhangs, etc.

4. repeated non-damaging hits which caused the enemy crews to abandon their vehicles because of the noise and concussion.

On 19 August 1941, a platoon of four KV-1s of the 1st Tank Division succesfully ambushed a German tank column advancing near the Voiskovitsy collective farm near Leningrad. The platoon leader, Sr. Lt. Zinoviy Kolobanov, knocked out the two lead tanks in the column. The following tanks apparently did not relize what had happened and continued to move forward. Kolobanov's platoon moved into the midst of German battalion and, in the melee that followed, Kolobanov destroyed 22 German tanks, ramming at least one in the process. His tank was hit 135(!) times during the firefight. The other three KVs destroyed a total of 16 other tanks. Kolobanov's feat made him the second highest ranking Soviet tank ace of the war.

[laxx]

hi,

also found this in

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/intro_russian_tanks.htm

most interesting

[xerxes]

In '41, the KV ruled supreme. The techniques to take them out came down to:

1. 88's repositioned for AT work

2. Satchel charges

3. Ground support aircraft

The 88's were the most effective from what I've read.

Howitzers didn't work, the German tanks didn't work.

And your tactics aren't in the least gamey. The only thing that's gamey is using coding errors to your advantage. Every other tactic is just innovation.

[Renaud]

Play 'Dzerzhinsky Roadblock' battle on the CMBB CD for a demo of this if you haven't already. The scenario plays out like one of the combat accounts involving KV-1.

Ren

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Tripps:

...but by the time the turrets have traversed, number 2 blue has retreated and number 1 blue has come back and is taking a pot shot

Ahhhh... * Ping Pong * Hee. That's a good one.

Search for tophat reveals posts which seem to say that it's a valid technique even for just one tank... Hmmm. As far as the game has been to me, that seems like a pretty ineffective suicide.

But back to the topic of the thread, would that Ping Pong thing be "gamey tank tactics" in the case where the tanks had no radio? Otherwise they'd have not much way of coordinating. Is seems unlikely that a flag/hand waving command line would exist connecting two tanks on separate sides of the field. ( It would be nice if the little info window for the tanks told us which ones had radio or not. )

But OTOH, maybe in RL a TC sort of "noticed" that their comrade was also shooting at the same heavy, so they knew that it was a ping pong situation, and hoped that their comrade figured that out too...?

What I was describing that I've been doing wouldn't need to be gamey, since it wouldn't depend on radio, it could be a very simple SOP- "everyone target the heavy, but the guy who's being targetted himself should back up, and come back in thirty seconds..." Kind of the same thing, generalized ping pong, but it only works for multi tanks, because the retreating guy doesn't need to time himself according to the advancing guy.

Eden

[laxx]

I created a "clinical" experiment yesterday, with June 1941 availability:

- KVs

- T26

- T34s

All 0 smoke, 0 AP, 0 HE

All Regulars

versus

- 38(t)

- Panzer III(50m/L42 or L48)

- Panzer IV(only L/24 versions available)

- Panzer II

- StuG L/24 versions

All Vets

Well, needless to say. All short nose tanks (StuG and Panzer IV) are best used for anti-personnel purposes. At 200 metres, they weren't accurate at all. At 50 to 90 metres, they did nothing to the KVs.

I had better success with Panzer IIIs, they knocked out the T-26, T-34 (repeated flank/back shots). At 90 - 200 metres, they did not have any impact on KVs.

At point blank, all but one of the KVs shrugged the shots off. One KV became immobile due to track damage, this after 4 panzer III shot repeatedly at point blank. The crew bailed out after a while.

[ November 12, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[laxx]

Conclusion for 1941 availability

-------------------------

- Doan try 1941 armor against KVs. Best hope if track damage at close range and massed armor.

- T-34s are quite well armored in the front. Panzer IIIs are no match for the 75/76 gun the T-34 has. Best hope is back and side shot.

- Panzer IVs and StuGs are best for infantry support. Useful for light tanks.

Next Step:

---------

- Infantry vs Soviet Armor

- Various Arty against Soviet Armor.

watch this space.

[ November 12, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[laxx]

gonna change the topic to "1941 german Tactics against Russian Tanks"

[ November 12, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Redwolf]

You should better start a new thread.

This one looks pretty bogus now since it begin with Panzer IV/70 in 1941.

[Tripps]

Originally posted by laxx:

Conclusion for 1941 availability

-------------------------

Next Step:

---------

- Infantry vs Soviet Armor

watch this space.

Just been doing some quick tests on this, June 41 vet German squad, couple tank hunters, and those 7.9mm anti-tank rifles

vs

8 or so no-ammo Kv1's

close quarters stuff.

quick conclusion:

Dont bother with the anti-tank rifles

Platoon headquarters unit disabled a KV1 with an ordinary grenade

Panzerwurfmine works a treat.

Overall though, units reluctant to use their bundled grenades...

Even at 10 meters, and following the KV's around, no suppresion or anything either, just didnt wanna biff the thing

And every now and then coming up behind the KV's would catch a pile of lead from the rear-facing MG.

I wouldnt be hesistant about assaulting a KV with infantry though.

food for thought.

cheers

[Big Ron]

Search for tophat reveals posts which seem to say that it's a valid technique even for just one tank... Hmmm. As far as the game has been to me, that seems like a pretty ineffective suicide.

With a single tank you move up, fire and then reverse. The enemy traverses his turret to where the fire came from. Move your tank to another position with line of sight. Pop out and fire then reverse. Now his turret is traversing towards you again. Reverse move to a third position... rinse and repeat (unless of course you knocked him out).

[Chad Harrison]

Funny how then in 1942 it becomes 'Russian Tactics against German Armor (StuG)'. Times changes I suppose.

The best success that I have had is with the Mark III tanks that have the 50mm L/42 gun. You only hope is side shots by multiple tanks, atleast two. The 50mm shell does not have a lot of knock out power, so you have to hit em a number of times.

How to get those side shots is up to you. I have found that the Russian player (not the AI) tends to be very aggressive with their KV's and T34's when they know they are very strong frontally. So let them bring them out and dont show your tanks to them. Its like a game of poker, you dont show your opponent your cards when he shows you his. Then be patient, and 90% of the time, a shot will give itslef to you.

The same tactics work latter for the Russians trying to deal with the Germans; especially the StuG from 1942 to 1944 when the T34/85 FINALLY shows up.

Chad

[laxx]

hi,

was out of town for a couple of daze. *but* i had a chance to test out infantry vs tanks.

comments:

- chad: actually, only in June 1942 did the Germans have good anti-KV/T34 armor: Marder series with 75 Long "nose", Panzer IV F2 and IV G series with 75 Long nose. That is actually one full year before they had decent anti-KV tanks.

I did a test along the same lines as Tripps. Found similar conclusion, a couple of things to add: Panzerwurfmine is *really* great, usually one or two would kill the KV-1 tank. I tried with Molotov cocktail, those weren't so successful, sort of splatted all over.

I had a couple of frontal penetrations via 03 ATRifle but it did not kill the T-34s. nor did it damage the KV.

Lastly I tested Flamethrowers against the T-34s. Those are deadly. I had two flammers flanking the T-34s, after a while the T-34 exploded.

More Tests to Follow:

-------------------

german: 2 anti-tank group each comprising of 1xflammer, 1xatr and 1xtankhunter group.

russian: KV-1 and T-34s

map: an ambush at the victory flags, troops hidden in the woods.

watch this space.