Problem with arty smoke between turns

[buckshyesh]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed. Did a search and found nothing.

Here's what happened: Playing Soviets:

Turn 5: I had the 82mm F.O. call for smoke.

Turn 7: Smoke shells started falling at about 23 seconds into the turn. At the end of the turn, the clock hung at 60 seconds while all the shells began emitting their smoke. Had GREAT cover!

Turn 8: (Early) ALL the smoke from turn 7 dispersed. New shells were falling but not emitting smoke yet.

(Mid) Human Wave began and comrades were cut to pieces.

(Late) Great cover again.

Turn 9: Same thing.

What's happening is that the smoke shells from early in the turn are "aging" as the clock sits at 60 seconds and waits for the last smoke shells to fall and pop smoke. Then on the next turn, you end up with just 4-6 fresh shells as you wait for the next volley to fall and pop, which is longer than the lifespan of some of the small calliber smoke shell. I think this kind of occured in CMBO, but not so dramatically.

Anyone else notice this problem?

[akdavis]

Yes, I've noticed that, but my real problem is with on-map smoke. I find that my mortars/inf. guns often refuse to respond to a smoke command if there is a target in LOS, and when they do, they are very reluctant to use up their few smoke rounds. So for example, if I try to lay down some smoke with a mortar, they will fire one of their smoke rounds, then discontinue the order. End up getting one smoke round per turn, which is basically useless. They treat the stuff like its Pzgr.40 or something.

[Panzer76]

Yep,noticed and agree.

[Mies]

Yes, it indeed is very frustrating when you order mortars or infantry guns to use smoke and after some 40 secs you have your men rush forward because you expect the smoke to be there. If your mortars or IG are happily firing at something else (no reason like self protection for that) then those poor grunts get slaughtered while running across open ground. Bummer.....

Mies

[Dschugaschwili]

For on-board guns and mortars you have to "protect" your smoke order with a narrow "cover arc" command to keep them from switching to another target.

Dschugaschwili

[Sgt. Schultz]

On a related smoke issue ...

I had a regular arty strike targeted on a TRP and firing. I switched to smoke and a different target next orders phase. I didn't like the delay and hit the new "reset target" key. It reset to the old target as smoke with no further delay built in to change from regular to smoke.

The next turn smoke falls like rain and covers the hill I wanted just in time.

Feature? Bug? Gamey? Inspired Idea?

You be the judge, because I am too busy being happy that my troops are safe from those tanks for a turn.

[WWB]

Check the wind speed. If you have a strong wind, the smoke disperses fast.

WWB

[Larsen]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Check the wind speed. If you have a strong wind, the smoke disperses fast.

WWB

The problem is that the smoke disperses fast only between the turns and not during the turns. During the turn the smoke screen stays up while the FO is firing. But in the beginning of next turn the smoke from previous turn disappears fast (like 3-5 econds) and the new one does not come up for 10-15 seconds as if the smoke that should be formed by the shells that fell in the last 15 sec of previous turn does not form up. So you have like 7-10 seconds in the begiing of turn 2 when the smoke screen is very poor. It feels as if the actions is not continues.

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Larsen:

... It feels as if the actions is not continues.

The action is not continuous. Unfortunately it seems like there's no easy way of getting rid of the overtime at the end of the turns. You will have to wait until the engine rewrite for this.

Dschugaschwili

[WWB]

I saw the same thing happen with the beta, then I tested it. If you have a strong wind medium mortar smoke will not stick around, which is pretty realistic IMHO. Try 105mm, it will persist a bit longer.

WWB

[Larsen]

Again, the smoke sticks during the turn. It's there and the cover is nice. But something happens between the turns. If you say the wind is the reason then why the smoke does not get blown away during the turn? There is some logic inconsistency. I would greatly appreciate if BTS could look into this and see if there might be a logic bug somewhere in the code.

With the new suppression model one just has to use smoke on attack. And by the way, Soviets don't have 105mm. On the other note everything that is not 81-82mm or 120mm mortars for both sides is not a battalion level arty and does not belong to games below 2000pts. Even 75-76mm arty.

[WWB]

76mm is quite BN level, and you can also use the 120s to pop the smoke screen. I do agree there is somewhat of an issue, but you still have not checked the wind speed. From what I saw this was only an issue with light mortars with alot of wind where the smoke would not persist for more than a turn and a half in any case. So what pray tell is the wind speed in this situation?

WWB

[buckshyesh]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

From what I saw this was only an issue with light mortars with alot of wind where the smoke would not persist for more than a turn and a half in any case. So what pray tell is the wind speed in this situation?

WWB

The wind was strong. But the wind does not cause the timing issue I mentioned above. It just exacerbates the problem. With no or light wind, I would have had heavy smoke at the end of turns and little smoke at the beginning of the turns.

If this is un-patchable, then I'll learn to live with it.

[Fishu]

When you use smoke for assault cover, try to use 'pause' for your troops to time the assault for the time when smoke appears on the field.

Whatever 10 second delay there is with smoke becoming effective after it's hit the ground..

[Larsen]

Originally posted by Fishu:

When you use smoke for assault cover, try to use 'pause' for your troops to time the assault for the time when smoke appears on the field.

Whatever 10 second delay there is with smoke becoming effective after it's hit the ground..

Pause will only work in the begging of the movement through the open terrain. But if your troops fail to reach the destination in 1 minute or 30-40 sec if delay is used then they are well in the open in the beginning of the next turn and with smoke from the previous turn disappearing between the turns they are most likely to get suppressed and pinned by MG fire.

In my experience one turn is usually not enough to cover the open space. One needs about 2 turns of smoke screen to move the troops trough the open terrain. Sometimes even 3. The reduction of the smoke screen in between the turns is a big problem. Wind, no wind, the smoke pretty much stays in during the turn but it somehow disappears in between the turns. I feel like the shells that fall in the last 10 sec of the turn don't have the same smoke effect as other shells.

[Le Tondu]

The one thing that I've noticed is that there are no dedicated smoke rounds like there are in tanks. 30 rounds and that is it. If you want to have any of them be smoke rounds, use them before they are all gone.

Also, smoke rounds will detract from the number of any real artillery that you want falling on your enemy's head. That doesn't seem right to me.

Shouldn't this be fixed or somefink?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Larsen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fishu:

When you use smoke for assault cover, try to use 'pause' for your troops to time the assault for the time when smoke appears on the field.

Whatever 10 second delay there is with smoke becoming effective after it's hit the ground..

Pause will only work in the begging of the movement through the open terrain. But if your troops fail to reach the destination in 1 minute or 30-40 sec if delay is used then they are well in the open in the beginning of the next turn and with smoke from the previous turn disappearing between the turns they are most likely to get suppressed and pinned by MG fire.

In my experience one turn is usually not enough to cover the open space. One needs about 2 turns of smoke screen to move the troops trough the open terrain. Sometimes even 3. The reduction of the smoke screen in between the turns is a big problem. Wind, no wind, the smoke pretty much stays in during the turn but it somehow disappears in between the turns. I feel like the shells that fall in the last 10 sec of the turn don't have the same smoke effect as other shells.</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Le Tondu:

The one thing that I've noticed is that there are no dedicated smoke rounds like there are in tanks. 30 rounds and that is it. If you want to have any of them be smoke rounds, use them before they are all gone.

Also, smoke rounds will detract from the number of any real artillery that you want falling on your enemy's head. That doesn't seem right to me.

Shouldn't this be fixed or somefink?

Yes, this is one of a number of things that still need some attention with regard to artillery.

Michael

[Larsen]

You cannot hide and give a movement order at the same time. You can order to hide once they reach the destination but you cannot give an order to hide for, say 30 sec and then start moving. At best your troops will be listed as "taking cover". Not sure if they would be invisible to the opponent though in such situation (a generic unit mark instead of a clear . Plus the defender can always order an area fire for MGs and guns. Those 10-15 sec till the smoke comes back might be enough for the defender to pin the troops down and slow their advance.

And in general, what you are suggesting is a work around for problem with using smoke. It would be nice to fix it once and forever. I think in CMBO smoke didn't exhibit such a behaviour.

As far as using FOs to lay smoke instead of shelling the bad guys... there are times when it's better to use arty to cover your troops than to shell the enemy. Of course one would normaly use small caliber arty to lay smoke.

[buckshyesh]

Originally posted by Larsen:

I feel like the shells that fall in the last 10 sec of the turn don't have the same smoke effect as other shells.[/QB]

I don't think it's the shells from late in the turn (see my opening post), it's the fact that the clock stops at 60 seconds and waits for the current round of shells to fall and pop smoke. During that time, the existing smokers are getting depleted of their smoke. Then at the beginning of the next turn, we have little more than one volley's worth of smoke shells on the ground making smoke. And if it's small cal. then, that ain't much, and it's gone soon too.

I think it's got to do with the fact that the shells on the ground at the 60-second mark are getting depleted as we wait for the last volley to fall and smoke. Meanwhile, our troops are running in place and painting targets on their chests.

Michael's solution, although not ideal, seems to be the best response if BFC cannot remedy in this version.

[Cameroon]

buckshyesh, yes I've noticed what you're talking about. I even ran a test and had written up my conclusions, but realized something else (its below).

This is a problem with the clock running after 60 seconds. We're losing time off of the smoke round's lifespan because the clock keeps ticking past 60. So at the start of each turn, some of those rounds are dead before they would otherwise be. This leaves an open window (of probably 20-25 seconds) where there is too little smoke to be effective (note that this is probably only really apparent with small FOs as larger modules hide the lost time in their longer lifespans).

What I realized, however, is that we've been living with equally (possibly) devestating effects of the clock running past 60 for artillery only.

Let's say you've got a platoon moving through some trees and in 5 seconds they will be inside houses, but the turn ends. Except for those artillery rounds. Now let's say they don't hit near your troops, except for that last one. Let's say it took it ten seconds to land after the 60 second mark and it lands right amongst your time-frozen soldiers.

Had your troops been moving all during that time, they would have been safe (or safer anyway) from that shell. But because time stopped for everything but the shells, your troops were hit.

The only way that I see to fix these problems is to either have a firm stop at 60 or let all the action continue until the last shell hits. I don't think either solution is going to happen though

[ October 21, 2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Cameroon ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Cameroon:

The only way that I see to fix these problems is to either have a firm stop at 60 or let all the action continue until the last shell hits. I don't think either solution is going to happen though

Yes, I think you are right. If I am correct, the reason the present situation exists is because the program can't keep track of shells in flight from one turn to another, so they have to land in the turn in which they are fired. This takes them out of synch with the other action of the turn as you have noted.

The only way to solve the problem would be either to rewrite the engine to keep track of shells in flight or to use variable length turns where all the action continues until the shells land. This latter approach could get really weird though if additional shells were fired while one set were in the air, and then another, etc. ad infinitum.

Michael

[ October 21, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Yes, I think you are right. If I am correct, the reason the present situation exists is because the program can't keep track of shells in flight from one turn to another, so they have to land in the turn in which they are fired. This takes them out of synch with the other action of the turn as you have noted.

The only way to solve the problem would be either to rewrite the engine to keep track of shells in flight or to use variable length turns where all the action continues until the shells land. This latter approach could get really weird though if additional shells were fired while one set were in the air, and then another, etc. ad infinitum.

Michael

I definitely believe it's not an easy problem to solve and without the code I couldn't even begin to formulate a good approach.

I'm not expecting to see this addressed, even the most straight-forward sounding (hard stop @60 and track the shells) is likely a big enough change to just not be worth it. Which is unfortunate since this coupled with wind really diminishes the ability of small smoke FOs.

[WWB]

I just ran this through the ringer using a 76mm, 82mm and 120mm spotter in all wind conditions. Basically it is only an issue when under Strong Wind conditions. Now, I have seen a thing or two stating that smoke was not used for a particular operation due to the wind making it ineffective, so it is not altogether inaccurate.

Note that the 120mm will persist through Strong Winds to some extent. If you really want a solid smoke screen under those conditions, I guess you have to go for 152mms for smoke.

WWB

[TSword]

Hello found this on:

http://www.britwar.co.uk/mod.php?mod=fileman&menu=8&PHPSESSID=cdb738075181c37dc737ee5d1cc81b5c

Almost all sources currently cited here are documents from the PRO, Kew, mostly from the series WO

291, which are reports and memoranda from operational research (OR) sections during and after WW2.

WO 32/10577 Tactical employment of smoke

This table gives "No. to produce 500 yards screen in 10 m.p.h. wind on a cloudy day. On a bright sunny

day or with low or high winds, expenditure of ammunition may have to be appreciably increased."

25 pdr BES 3 candles, burn for 1½ mins 2 rds/min

4.2" mortar 25 lbs WP, 3,000 yds 6 bombs/min (theoretical)

3" mortar WP 1,600 yds 10 bombs/min

2" mortar 2 mins emission 500 yds 9 bombs/min

3" AFV howitzer 1500 yds 3 rds/min

2" bomb thrower 2lb smoke mixture 150 yds being replaced by WP

4" smoke discharger 3½ lbs smoke mixture 90 yds lighter AFVs only

The "pillaring" tendency of WP rounds is noted.

"It should be appreciated that what may be intended as a line of smoke... may in fact become an area of

smoke drifting downwind, possibly for some thousands of yards. It will be impossible to forecast the

exact travel in distance or direction beforehand."

Seems that in CMBB the effectivness of smokerounds are underated in both duration and necessary rounds to produce camo-effect

Btw. Cited Document contains a Heap of interesting material, worth a reading.

Greets

Daniel