rucrazee Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Franko, Thanks for the info . It seems Wittman's ego got the best of him. Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall (Proverbs 16:18). Big Dog, You are right I will review the scenarios just played and those I play in the future. I guess it is the least I can do as payback for the fair share of time I have spent sampling the goodies at the Scenario Depot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 Originally posted by Franko: Aignan. The evidence strongly suggests he took two firefly rounds (ouch) into the side Armor of the turret. [snips] through a draw in front of the British lines. If Wittman would have been a tad more patient, he may have survived the engagement. [snips] period). Then, he promptly gets killed committing a rookie mistake. [snips] Most of the Germans knew that the British had occupied the Apple Orchard the night before. There were remnants of German wehrmacht units in the area. "Panzer" Meyer had talked to them. There was really no excuse for heading into battle completely exposed towards a couple of hundred British/Canadian tanks. FrankI think you might want to be a bit careful with the 6/6 hindsight binoculars, there. I'd be intereted to know what your source is for evidence that Wittman's Tiger took two hits in the turret side. I understand that the farmer who owned the field where what was believed to be hist Tiger lay for years claimed that no penetrations were visible. I'm not too sure about the "rookie mistake" and lacking patience, either. The ground in front of St Aignan does not really allow much scope for tactical cleverness, being essentially bare hillside. Support form the right flank would have been problematic, as a small wooded valley divides the battlefield lengthwise (with respect to the opposing forces). I'd also like to know your source for the Germans knowing the Brits were there the night before; Ken Tout's account in "Tanks, Advance!" has 1NY arriving in St-Aignan at about dawn that day. All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEIPER#1 Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 people people! he was hit from the air!, british tankers still want to get the credit.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 16, 2002 Share Posted February 16, 2002 Thanks franko. I regard August Bank Holiday as best CM scenario i ever played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted February 16, 2002 Share Posted February 16, 2002 Gentlemen, We went over all this stuff quite a while ago. In this context you might find this old thread interesting: Old Wittman discussion Bottomline for his demise are the concurring german and british eyewitness accounts and unit diaries. The Northants got the Tigers with their pants down knocking out 5 Tigers all from within the Orchard in St.Aignan. Joe Ekins got most of them and most likely Wittmann was one of his victims. Read the thread and even better read the sources cited within the thread and make up your own mind. cheers Helge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apex Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 how were tankers chosen in the German army?..was it voluntary?No. You got drafted and then assigned something. For instance, my grandfather was drafted in '42, assigned to naval artillery as a cook (being a, what you call somebody who makes cakes, not a baker), then in '44 got reassigned to a StuG brigade 905 first as a gunner then as commander (on a StuG, obviously). apex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 Why are people still claiming air attack? We all know that a Firefly can kill a Tiger, so why is this so hard to believe? If one assumes that the Discovery Channel is historically accurate, then the cause is anti-tank fire, and there is a good picture of Wittman's tank (number 007) with the turret on the ground about 15 metres from the hull (IIRC) One would assume the rest of Wittman's crew died too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rucrazee Posted February 19, 2002 Share Posted February 19, 2002 Thank you for that old link Helge. It was extremely fascinating reading. It's a shame I can't bring up those photos though . "Tankcam" anyone . I think one cannot help but admire Wittman despite how he was taken out. In reading of Wittman's heroics and daring I can understand people not wanting to believe Wittman being taken out by an allied tanker since it undermines the legend somewhat. These guys all played a dangerous game. Whether insane daring or meticulous risk calculation, all it takes is one simple slip-up. Guys like Wittman I liken to fighter pilots. Fighter pilots have a saying that goes like this: "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. But there are no old, bold pilots." Thanks for this thread guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 Originally posted by rucrazee: Thank you for that old link Helge. It was extremely fascinating reading. It's a shame I can't bring up those photos though . "Tankcam" anyone . I think one cannot help but admire Wittman despite how he was taken out. In reading of Wittman's heroics and daring I can understand people not wanting to believe Wittman being taken out by an allied tanker since it undermines the legend somewhat. These guys all played a dangerous game. Whether insane daring or meticulous risk calculation, all it takes is one simple slip-up. Guys like Wittman I liken to fighter pilots. Fighter pilots have a saying that goes like this: "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. But there are no old, bold pilots." Thanks for this thread guys.It was not the first time a German Ace was defeated in a rather mundane manner, Manfred Von Richtofen, the Red Baron was shot down by either ground fire or by a less experienced flier while he was chasing a even less experienced Allied pilot. They can't all go down in a blaze of glory, even Patton died in a jeep accident after all. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marder Posted February 20, 2002 Share Posted February 20, 2002 how were tankers chosen in the German army?..was it voluntary? For an elite unit such as the one Wittman was in, yes, it was voluntary. I'm not sure about the rest of the army though... Sorry Panther G, not correct. One Great Uncle of mine (brother of my Grandma) got drafted into LAH and vanished in his Tiger during Operation Zitadelle (Kursk 1943) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronChef4 Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!! Recent evidence points to the cause of demise as being the result of one of the crew members lighting a fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degus Posted February 22, 2002 Author Share Posted February 22, 2002 Yes but that would have just killed the crew...how do account for the damage to the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronChef4 Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 The flames set off the ammunition inside the tank, one 88 round shot out of the side of the turret and it blew off. Simple. Farts are the most hated enemy of tank crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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