Seriously thing of switching off!

[Doodlebug]

I've just set up a QB, pretty open terrain, AI Soviet infantry defence, low quality 1941. The AI also has some wire, trenches and a couple of MG bunkers and one green infantry company. I picked high quality Germans as attackers, an infantry company, 3 HMG's for suppressive fire and a mortar FO primarily for smoke support. It didn't go terribly well. To be honest I've replayed it from varying points three times now with almost identical results and have made a few observations based on the experience.

1. I was frankly amazed at the behaviour of my squads when they came under fire. An example would be having advanced under fire, for perhaps 100m , to then begin to sneak back when within 10 m of the empty building for which they had plotted seemed a little bizzarre. I think, IIRC, that the recognition of cover is going to be improved in the upcoming patch.

2. Another regular occurrence seems to be that fire triggers an "auto panic sneak mode". The problem with that is that they take forever to clear the danger zone which caused the crisis in the first place and by the time they do get clear they are tired out.The icing on the cake of course is that the panic prevents any sort of rational intervention in the situation. You just have to watch as the quirky cover routine kicks in.

I believe that the tactic of the time was to keep going and clear the fire zone as quickly as possible. Once troops went to ground and sought cover it was tough to get them going again. It did occur to me that an advancing squad under fire might react in a similar general pattern. As the fire becomes more severe or casualties mount they would endeavour to continue to obey orders and to advance, dropping to a sneak at some point and then becoming pinned down stationary. The threshold at which these steps kick in would vary according to the seriousness of the threat, the quality of the troops and the quality of their officers( in other words command bonuses).Broken or routed troops have manifestly failed in the face of danger and will care little for orders or objectives or anything except their personal safety. There exists the phenomena of the "collapse forward". Broken troops can actually rout forward into cover. I am hoping that improved cover recognition may premit this situation to be moddelled. Between the two extremes of OK and not OK(broken or routed) lies the grey area of "panic". Troops at that stage will be undecided as to which of the two options they should follow. A continuation of danger might well push them over the edge whereas a lessening may see them continue according to orders. To that end would it not be more logical to see panicked troops remain stationary until the choice is decided for them? An officer moving forward and adding command bonuses may rally them or additional fire and casualties break them and send them moving for cover.

2. Lastly it seemed very apparent that as soon as squads broke cover and started to advance they were targetted amazingly quickly. The speed with which they attracted yellow targetting lines was frightening and extraordinary. It did occur that in the same way that troops have a command delay that they should also have an accquisition delay. That delay should depend on their quality and the amount of ground they are expected to watch over with a covered arc. The greater the arc the greater the delay. I suspect that if such a thing were to be introduced the it would permit fast thinking veterans the opportunity to break cover, dash forward and get down again before a poor quality defender drew an accurate bead. The consequences of misjudgement in such a situation would naturally be severe and potentially terminal.

As you can tell from the title of this piece I'm seriously considering switching off and waiting for the patch to be released in the hope that some of the more annoying aspects are addressed.

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

As you can tell from the title of this piece I'm seriously considering switching off and waiting for the patch to be released in the hope that some of the more annoying aspects are addressed.

This is in fact what I've done! I find myself checking these forums to keep up with the mods, ideas and watching for the patch.(lots of time on my hands right now, our weather is absolutely terrible :mad: )

Your probably aware there are 2 completely at odds camps on this very subject......I hope we all end up feeling that BTS has got it right!

Where is that bloody patch!!??!!

KC

[Guest Mike]

Why would you think that squads breaking cover wouldn't attract fire?

Especialy if there's nothing else to shoot at.

Also note that a yellow line is a targeting line not a firing line - the shooting unit still has to turn to face the direction it's shooting in. For infantry this doesn't take very long - a few seconds - more for heavier weapons, etc.

[Michael Dorosh]

2. It did occur that in the same way that troops have a command delay that they should also have an accquisition delay. That delay should depend on their quality and the amount of ground they are expected to watch over with a covered arc.

What makes you so sure this isn't happening now?

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 2. It did occur that in the same way that troops have a command delay that they should also have an accquisition delay. That delay should depend on their quality and the amount of ground they are expected to watch over with a covered arc.

What makes you so sure this isn't happening now?</font>

[Schoerner]

Hi Doodlebug!

Remembering Hotton Belgium? That was a battle!

The trigger-levels for auto-suicide-sneak-mode will be changed a little in the patch.

I also switched off until BTS stated, that this specific issue will become corrected in the patch. Now i play again - just for learning until the patch is out.

I totally agree with the strange auto-sneak directions.

I immediately stopped playing CMBB after i saw this for the first time in Cremetary Hill.

IMO this behaviour has nothing in common with a realistic behaviour and it has become much worse since CMBO.

It would be even better, if the AI would leave it's fingers off the units and let them where they are instead of choosing senseless and strange directions for suicide-sneak, while life-saving cover is so close.

Unitl now i NEVER saw a unit go down, waiting and automatically running as fast as possible either torwards it'S target location or torwards next cover.

But i see always units sneaking torwards HMGs or sneaking 100m back where they came from, instead of running the last 10m torwards NEAREST cover.

I also hope, this will be fixed.

It destroys so much of this great game.

[ November 18, 2002, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Hi Doodlebug!

Remembering Hotton Belgium? That was a battle!

The trigger-levels for auto-suicide-sneak-mode will be changed a little in the patch.

I also switched off until BTS stated, that this specific issue will become corrected in the patch. Now i play again - just for learning until the patch is out.

I totally agree with the strange auto-sneak directions.

I immediately stopped playing CMBB after i saw this for the first time in Cremetary Hill.

IMO this behaviour has nothing in common with a realistic behaviour and it has become much worse since CMBO.

It would be even better, if the AI would leave it's fingers off the units and let them where they are instead of choosing senseless and strange directions for suicide-sneak, while life-saving cover is so close.

Unitl now i NEVER saw a unit go down, waiting and automatically running as fast as possible either torwards it'S target location or torwards next cover.

But i see always units sneaking torwards HMGs or sneaking 100m back where they came from, instead of running the last 10m torwards NEAREST cover.

I also hope, this will be fixed.

It destroys so much of this great game.

Hi there, you little rascal. How are you? Let me recall who won that one. YOU !! D'oh. But it was exciting to watch and we must play again soon.

I'm very much hoping that the AI in the patch is improved at recognising the relative value of cover and is better able to pick the best(safest?) option. I do not know whether the routine takes account of time under fire as a result of it's choices (Anyone?) maybe it should if it does not already do so.

There must be a case for running 10 m and hiding behind a wall or hedge or building rather than retracing the previous 100m back to the start line. The "collapse forward" is a recognised response to fire and one that I think we would all accept if the patch can deliver it.

Then again perhaps we are all expecting too much of the AI and such subtle and sophisticated choices are beyond it. If one thing, and one only, could be altered by the patch then it would be the "panic sneak" response to firing and the annoying (and tiring) 100m crawl to the rear that ensues.

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by Schoerner:

Unitl now i NEVER saw a unit go down, waiting and automatically running as fast as possible either torwards it'S target location or torwards next cover.

I saw units start to run towards their objective when they came under fire while advancing, but I admit that this is a rare case.

What I would like to see is that infantry units consider moving/sneaking/running/whatever out of LOS to the attacker as a self-preservation reaction. Vehicles already seem to do this, so implementing this for infantry may not be as difficult as it sounds.

Dschugaschwili

[Redwolf]

A unit can be under fire without having a yellow line to it.

Infantry bunches moving over MG-infected terrain will all be considered under fire although only one of them has a yellow line. HE falling into the middle of them obviously counts, too.

So much is all OK and well, but apart from this misunderstanding the original poster has its points: I have to consider CMBB 1.0 as barely playable due to some of the issues mentioned, especially in combination with other bugs like brush mostly giving no concealment.

[Doodlebug]

Originally posted by redwolf:

A unit can be under fire without having a yellow line to it.

Infantry bunches moving over MG-infected terrain will all be considered under fire although only one of them has a yellow line. HE falling into the middle of them obviously counts, too.

So much is all OK and well, but apart from this misunderstanding the original poster has its points: I have to consider CMBB 1.0 as barely playable due to some of the issues mentioned, especially in combination with other bugs like brush mostly giving no concealment.

Good observations. I agree with your comments. I fear the bizzarre behaviour of my men under fire may well have coloured my perceptions with regards to fire effects rather more than is warranted.