British A.V.R.E's

[Doug Indeep]

tell the world what you know about A.V.R.E's.

Sure we all know that these tanks are ok, but they are slow and have very little armor. Any thing you want to add.

[Pzman]

First thing to remember is that they are great for taking our bunkers, and infantry that just wont budge. The armor on them seams fine to me, no better or worse then any other churchill tank.

[gibsonm]

The Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers (AVRE) was a specialist vehicle built by the British to support their efforts in NW Europe (along with the Sherman Crab and other vehicles). Collectively they were referred to as "funnies".

They were used at Normandy and made the buisiness of obstacle breaching much easier. It has been said that US casualties on Omaha would have been much lower if they had accepted the British offer to include the "funnies" in their landing.

Anyway if you remember that it is a specialist vehicle and employ its mortar main armament correctly (against buildings, strongpoints and dug in Infantry, etc) it should do very well.

Try to engage 88's at range or go toe to toe with heavy German armour and you will no doubt be writing several letters.

Hope that helps.

[ April 01, 2002, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: gibsonm ]

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Doug Indeep:

tell the world what you know about A.V.R.E's.

Sure we all know that these tanks are ok, but they are slow and have very little armor. Any thing you want to add.

At ranges below 100 meters absolutely lethal against all axis armour. Obviously -and unfortunately- the axis armour won't let you get so close.....

Hence: AVREs are Infantry Close Support tanks, to move directly behind an *advancing* infantry unit. Use against dug in infantry, MGs, guns/mortars, flamethrower, etc., NOT against AFVs/TDs. It might even help to take out a pill box.

[Mud]

The 280mm shaped-charge round is nasty enough to tickle a pillbox from the side, if memory serves. Most other vehicles require estimating the PB's firing arc for a safe shot at the firing slit, or distraction games (multiple vehicles far apart, hunting forward/reverse backwards, to confuse the PB's targetting).

[Redwolf]

You realize the Churchills come in thick and thin variants? 88mm versus 152mm? vulnerable to the 75mm L/48 or not?

Just a few weeks ago I had someone tooling me with an AVRE and initially I thought the guy didn't know what he did, because the AVRE doesn't look useful to me. We see quite a few people coming from Close Combat, where these things are very deadly because CC doesn't have a proper hit probablity model and doesn't take shell flight time into consideration, and speed, and..., and well CM, is a better game.

Anyway, he said it was his first CM ladder game, so I asked him whether he came from CC and he said no, and then then started blowing my infantry to hell. My pair of Pz IV fell victim to 17 pdrs, and the AVRE was going around the big flag house like a Tiger in a cage and blasted everything away, especially my Schrecks, until the last turns of the game. It was hilarious. The thin Churchills are actually swift enough to dodge a lot of Panzerschreck shots when on the road, which he was. I finally committed my veteran Panzergrenadier reserve against a single tank, a thing I never did before, and they nailed it with a Faust at 5 meters, but the reserve was pretty finally committed, it didn't come out in good shape and I could do nothing else against the full platoon sitting in all levels of a two-story building with the small flag.

The game was a total mess, I inflicted 1450 knockout points in a 1500 points game, and he did not get an autosurrender, he had the intact platoon on the small flag.

I don't have CMBO in front of me, could anyone tell me what MGs and how much ammo the AVRE has?

[Arsenal]

Sounds like a helluva game redwolf

The AVRE has 25c rounds for the main gun and 250 rounds for the bow mg.

[Redwolf]

I quessed that. The bow MG is more useful in this situation, because it can shoot into a direction the turret doesn't currently face. A fast turret helps against infantry rushes, too.

And I believe that the reason why the main gun is so effective against infantry is the extremly low speed of the shell. It make a very high bow, and it is very likely to hit the spot on the ground where the target is, while a 105mm howitzer or whatever may over- or undershoot easily. An effect not entirely unrealistic, IMHO. Also, the blast is more than a 105mm.

While the front isn't impressive, the side armor is pretty decent. if you keep it angle at 45 degrees to a possible threat, you can build quite effective armor - this doesn't work if side armor is thin.

Thick side armor and angle in action.

A thing I wonder about is why the thick and thin Churchill's have almost the same weight, and hence the same speed, in CMBO.

Learn something new every day...

[ April 03, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Caesar]

I've bought them before simply for the entertainment value. I love the sight of that shell slowly flying through the air. In reality though, the churchill 95 is a better buy IMO. You get more ammo and much better range. While the blast is lower a bit lower and won't deal with Pillboxes etc, it is still very substantial.

[Cpt. Cook]

So in terms of its function, how does it rate in comparison to the crocodile, which it appears to be synonymous with? I don't know anything about their practical relative "worth" )i.e. purchase value) as up to now I have only played AI stuff. I treat croc's like "presents", I only use them for clean-up, otherwise they are always the first to be targeted.

Off the top of your heads, what is a good scen. with an AVRE in it in which I could play the AI? Can't seem to find one.

[Lt. Rags]

I got one in an AI QB meeting engagement and had to employ it in an AT role. Had it in some woods in a depression on my flank. When the three Panthers and the KT came around the corner I popped out with the fast/reverse move and got a shot off before ducking back (gotta love those British fast turrets). The KT lead the charge. I dropped a charge on it's front armor and took it out. He missed a Panther but the blast disabled it and nailed a second Panther before they got him.

If you can hit 'em the penetration is something like 400.

[flamingknives]

The Croc is a 'thick' varient Churchill, so it can trundle right up to a 75mm pillbox and get away with it. The 75mm main gun is as good (bad?) as a vanilla sherman. The flame has the longest range in the game for FT weapon, and will have enemy Inf. running across water to get away from it. If you want to get infantry out of adug in postion than the Croc.'s your tank

[GenSplatton]

The Wrong Hill has an AVRE in it. It is a heavily wooded armor battle, so you will have to fight armor with it. Mine killed two Panthers before it couldn't back away/reload fast enough to survive. It also missed twice at very short range. So it's kill percentage against a Panther at less than 50m is about 50%.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Cpt. Cook:

So in terms of its function, how does it rate in comparison to the crocodile, which it appears to be synonymous with? [snips]

I think it's Andrew Wilson's "Flame Thrower" (an account of his service with 141 Regiment RAC (The Buffs), a Crocodile regiment) that describes "the drill" for dealing with stubborn concrete pillboxes. First, the pillbox apertures are engaged with 75mm and BESA to dissuade anyone inside from attempting to shoot through them. Some pillboxes give up at this point. Next, an AVRE fires a petard, to make a big hole in the pillbox. Most pillboxes give up at this point. Finally, a Crocodile fires flame into the hole created by the petard. I can't recall Wilson's exact words, but he says something like "There wasn't a fourth movement to the drill; it wasn't really necessary."

All the best,

John.

[Mofo8]

I just finished a book called "Battlion" about the actions of one of the Seaforth Highlanders battalions from North Africa through to crossing the Elbe. The author describes how Crocodiles would deal with stubborn pilloxes. They would squirt unignited fuel through the opening for a minute then one quick burst of lit fuel. Whoooooosh!

[Guest PondScum]

Originally posted by Mofo8:

They would squirt unignited fuel through the opening for a minute then one quick burst of lit fuel. Whoooooosh!

Gamiest damn use of a flamethrower I've ever heard of