Philippe Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 At some point in the near future there will be new CMMOS editions of the Allied and German uniform sets. At the same time, the CMMOS vehicle project rolls on and it is not impossible to imagine a time when every German vehicle and gun will come in mono-colour, tri-colour, tri-colour ambush, hasty, all of the above with zimmerit. And all Allied vehicles will come with various types of high or low visibility markings, aircraft recognition, and the like. And all of these vehicles will be able to be switched between appropriate nationalities and even specific units. Much of this work is already done, and those who have had the patience to learn to use CMMOS have been rewarded by being able to switch back and forth between unit designations and nationalities on the major vehicle types at will. There is only one problem. Most of us, myself included, simply don't know enough about the finer details of World War II to know when to use one particular uniform as opposed to another, or that a particular unit was using hasty camouflage in one month and tricolor ambush with zimmerit in another. An enormous amount of effort is being pored into making sure the details are correct, but many of us, in the absence of encyclopaedic knowledge or a short and concise guide, are forced to resort to picking the camouflage and uniform details that they think looks coolest. This is a shame. The purpose behind all those choices in CMMOS should be to make in possible to be historically correct, not merely fashion conscious. So here is my question. It's actually two questions, and it is really an appeal. Could someone give a month by month breakdown of what uniform camouflage types one would be likely to encounter in Western Europe from June '44 to April '45 ? And there is a parallel question for vehicles. Could someone give a month by month breakdown (or perhaps unit by unit) of camouflage types, and, perhaps, an indication of frequency with which one would encounter things like high or low visibility Allied markings, aerial recognition panels, and the like. The answers that I'm looking for, by the way, need to be able to be reduced to two or possibly four charts that can be incorporated into the appropriate places in CMMOS. I know there are some truly amazing concentrations of knowledge on WWII details out there, so here is a chance for the truly knowledgeable to make a significant, immediate, and lasting contribution to CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 The purpose behind all those choices in CMMOS should be to make in possible to be historically correct, not merely fashion conscious. I'm more for the cool and fashionable meself. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 Phillppe..as far as i am aware....the suppy situation for the German Armed forces was chaotic and that the guys wore what ever was at hand.....for the W-SS units you would have mix and match in the same platoon...pea 44 pattern trousers/ jackets / smocks in oak leaf etc.same goes for the Heer. As for vehicles with zimmerit....Pz IVs Gs( refitted ) Hs and early J ( produced up to September 1944 ) would have an application of zimmerit ....after that time no zimmerit was applied to any vehicle as it was discontinued due to fears of its combustability. regards Måkjager [ March 08, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Måkjager ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 This is a shame. The purpose behind all those choices in CMMOS should be to make in possible to be historically correct, not merely fashion conscious.Why is it a shame? Sounds a bit like trying to get everyone to conform to one person or one group's idea of what is 'historically correct', a consensus I don't think everyone could ever agree on. If it's a question of not knowing what's 'historically correct' I wouldn't worry about it too much, go with what you like. If it's something that really bothers you then by all means do some research. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted March 9, 2002 Author Share Posted March 9, 2002 Originally posted by Tiger: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is a shame. The purpose behind all those choices in CMMOS should be to make in possible to be historically correct, not merely fashion conscious.Why is it a shame? Sounds a bit like trying to get everyone to conform to one person or one group's idea of what is 'historically correct', a consensus I don't think everyone could ever agree on. If it's a question of not knowing what's 'historically correct' I wouldn't worry about it too much, go with what you like. If it's something that really bothers you then by all means do some research. -john</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 I'm okay with historical accuracy but often times it's just like this: It's not about how well you do it, it's all about how good you look doing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 "Uniformity" was a foreign concept in the German Army. They just simply did not pay attention to such things (in practice), and German troops wore a hodgepodge of insignia and uniform types - At least four main variants of the field blouse (tunic) were worn during the war years, three major types of kragenpatten (collar patches), with variations on the backing material giving six basic variants, two types of shoulder boards, plus the variances of wool lots and dye lots, added to the deterioration of wool quality and the increasing uses of synthetics (including wood fibre) all meant that by 1944, no two German soldiers looked alike. To take an extreme example, Sturmartillerie (assault gun) crews changed from black AFV uniforms to field grey, and wore a variety of collar patches, including pink pipes skull patches, red piped skull patches, red patches without the skulls, litzen patches, and litzen patches with a red border around them. Even within the same unit, indeed even one single vehicle crew, photographic evidence throughout the war shows that old patterns were "worn out" alongside new patterns. And in the end, the German Army had more important things to worry about than enforcing (or documenting, for that matter) dress regulations. There was no "standard" camo pattern, even for Army troops, and the main camo garment is not even possible to mod - the splinter pattern shelterquarter (zeltbahn). Italian camo was popular, for example, and zeltbahnen were sometimes converted to field made garments - each infantry company had (officially) a tailor as part of the supply train - that's one for every 120 infantry soldiers. Like 109 Gustav's sig says - make do, or do without - and that's what the German Army did. They weren't pretty - but they could fight. The situation is similar in Commonwealth circles, but I find Andrew Fox's Battledress mod appropriate for the entire campaign. The only camouflage items widely issued to CW line infantry were the face veil (worn as a scarf, usually), and the anti-gas cape, which is similarly impossible to mod in CM. Other than that, specialist troops such as paratroopers, snipers, and some officers wore the Denison Smock (Andrew did that one already in hi-res), and limited issue of camo printed windproofs seem also to have been issued. Going beyond "generic" uniforms and into specific, "accurate" uniforms is impossible, because no two soldiers ever did dress alike, yet CM uses the same graphics for ever soldier in the game. The stock artwork actually represents the best compromise and the most accurate portrayal of "types" of uniforms. As for "one stop shopping" regarding Uniform info - I suggest a visit to my CANUCK site below, or better, buy my book DRESSED TO KILL for an understanding of Canadian military uniforms, and buy the recent 5 part series by Men at Arms written by Nigel Thomas to understand the German uniform scene - or visit my LANDSER site at http://members.shaw.ca/deutschesoldaten/ for a brief introduction. There are several other good sites out there also dealing with German and American uniforms. The study of uniforms is a field in itself - both my books on Canadian WWII uniforms are the result of several years of research and the advice of dozens of learned persons. In the end, you could release 100 different mods for German infantry, and every one would be just as authentic as the other - and it would come down to which one the player likes best. Which is right where we started from. [ March 09, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 I can only second what has been said above. Both Wehrmacht and SS had no plan which camo was used and when. They just worn what was available. Beside that, depending on the production year, facilities and available rawmaterial, even the pattern types itself looked different. The only known constat was that the SS and the Wehrmacht did not share their camo patterns. The Wehrmacht used the 'Splinter' & 'Swamp (AKA Tan&Water)' patterns, the SS various types of 'Oak' pattern, several 'Pea' or 'Dot' types, an 'Italian' called pattern and at last the 'Leibermuster'. The Fallschirmjäger has worn both Wehrmacht and SS camos. I recomment to visit the CM mod section of WarfareHQ. Scipio has made a set with all Wehrmacht camos - I still hope a set for the SS will follow - and JorgeMC shows a few others, too. [ March 09, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Puff the Magic Dragon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted March 9, 2002 Author Share Posted March 9, 2002 Thank you for your informative and detailed responses. Now I'm not forgetting the armour camouflage question because I have a nagging feeling that certain units tended to use certain patterns at certain times of year. But I'm going to continue to beat a dead horse for a bit. I haven't done any primary research myself so I can only ask questions, and even then, the focus of the questions is really limited to textures that are currently available in CM. My first question is, did every single uniform and camo type currently available in CM become available before June '44 ? I'm assuming that would mean they had all been introduced before March '44. Did any of them come into existance after that, and if so, approximately when ? If any of them were issued after June '44 I would suppose they would be a little less common during at least the first month. Were any of the camo types "old" models that would still be seen alongside the new ones, but that were in the process of wearing out (and therefore, by wear, tear, and implication, a little less common)? [As an aside, I gather that the ideal would be to have slightly different uniforms on each member of a German squad]. Were any of the camouflage types more favored in certain seasons ? And even if you didn't want to wear your spring foliage camouflage in the autumn, was there anything you could do about it? That is, just because something was less favored doesn't mean it was still used...but was it used as often, or was there even a choice. Did anyone wear winter white camouflage in the summer of '44 ? What about the Spring of '45 ? And is it even possible to know the answers to any of these questions ? Michael's site, by the way, is a wonderful compendium of information on uniforms. I have spent many happy hours there in the past, and recommend it highly to anyone who hasn't seen it. [ March 09, 2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Philippe ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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