CMBB: Where are the Polish units?

[Skipper]

Yup, Galicia is the word.

There are many regions in Ukraine - something like 30.

Btw, one of my ganddads was from Poltava.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Skipper:

Plse refer to Mein Kampf for further details.

Skipper,

please spare me your cynicism and offensive tone, it is totally uncalled for.

so my intial understanding of the meaning of your original post was, unfortunately, correct. Your original insinuation that ukrainians are to be considered russians and that any who fought alongside the germans were traitors is a great insult to these unfortunate people (hardly any survived WW II, because of the war and the subsequent western policy to re-patriate "home" into the USSR the eastern-troops-POWs where many of them were received by the NKVD and shot and the rest sent to the Gulag, apparently Stalin thought similarly to you about them being traitors).

To me it would seem that Ukrainians and all the other ethnic groups who fought alongside the germans (btw surely soldiers from these ethnical groups fought alongside / as part of the regular Red Army, too) apparently thought that the germans / nazis were the lesser of two evils, and in any event the soldiers who fought in ukrainian ethnic units surely were not told any mischievous plans the nazi's had in store for their people.

besides, Schicklgruber's "Mein Kampf" was not identical with the plans which the germans actually developed for the eastern countries during the war. I could cynicylly refer you to memo Merkblatt 8a/3 and to order HV 44 B / 289, revised into / 292 of 1.7.1944 "for further details", but I want to tell you actual facts found inside those sources: on the paper (one could reasonably argue about what practical value it would have had if they would really have to be carried out in the event of victory), these documents showed and ordered a total emancipation of the eastern troops, which were considered to be completely equal to german soldiers, and stated that eastern troops soldiers would receive share of land in the east (mind you, this was at a time when barely any soviet territory was still in german control).

for the different ethnic groups who were suffering under Stalin it probably appeared that they would not have been worse off if they were not under bolshevist russian but nazi german rule (it would *seem* to them since they wouldn't know better), so for those ethnical groups who had some axes to grind with the russians or the bolshevists it was not unreasonable to *believe* that they could profit from the german invasion.

finally, a great number of "volunteers" simply chose the relative freedom of being a "german" soldier over the hardships of being a POW.

of course, with your 20/20 hindsight from today it is easy to say "but didn't they know what the germans were up to??". but of course, you were not there, not at that time, and not one of them.

They were misguided maybe (though many of them were convinced anti-communists), but not traitors. To insinuate that they were traitors is wrong, it is not up to you to judge those people, and simply not fair of you to insult them.

[ March 01, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Skipper]

Well, my reference to Mein Kampf was not in anyway intended to be cynical or offensive. That book was the charismatic vision of der fuhrer, printed in black and white in millions of copies and used for indoctrination of masses.

There were other documents, dated 1941-42, outlining implementation plan of that vision. Nazi government had a department dealing with these plans specifically. So, there is no reason to think that this vision would not become a reality if germans won the war.

Of course, people who joined german forces might not think about this. If they would know this and still joined german forces, well...

On the issue of soviet POWs released from german captivity. I can dig up some statistics, but basically speaking the notion that they were all killed or imprisoned is ridiculous. This whole business was about institutional paranoia, not some monstrous blood lust. In reallife most of these people went through filtration camps (several weeks) and released. Less than 5% were sentenced to imprisonment terms, and several thousand executed. NOT for surrendering in the first place, mostly, but for alleged cooperation with Germans during captivity.

[Frw Koslov]

Mr Skipper,

A few facts about Osttruppen:

Estimates show that there were 1.5-2million eastern troops fighting for the Reich over the period of WW2.

In 1945 there were actually MORE volunteers listed for active duty than at any time previous.

October '44 there were 220,000 Ukrainians in a direct military role plus tens of thousands of special police units. I do not agree that these (or any other Eastern Legion troops) were "traitors" - they had suffered extrememly badly from both badly managed food distribution/deliberate starvation (take you pick) and the Red Terror which raged through the non-Russian states far more so than in "the Rodina".

On the issue of their treatment after the war, yes Soviet POW's (ie Soviet troops in German POW camps)were handed back and unless any evidence of collaboration was given they were free to go. Many were not as Stalin believed many should never have allowed themselves to be captured...

On the other hand, ALL Eastern volunteers handed over were shot or sent to Siberia to be worked to death. I know of no account of any survivors other than those who escaped Allied capture in the first place.

It does not surprise me in the least that people who say "my family came from xxxx and I didn't know about it" - does anyone really think Stalin would have broadcast the level at which his people volunteered to fight against his system?

It is a very, very hard subject to research, but...

Frw. Koslov

(re-enactor of 835 Ostbattailon, Luftwaffen-Feld-Division 17)

[killmore]

Galicia is also Austrian name for South east Poland. Including Cracow (southern Poland), Slovenia and Lvov (Now west ukraine).

Polish 1st army had at least ISU 152s and ISU-122s. (and T-34s of all kinds) Seen pictures on that russian site (www.vif2.ru ?)

Ukrainian formations (UPA?) fought together with remnants of Polish AK against Soviets in the south-east corner of Poland until 1947. At that time they were exterminated. Population of that area dropped 10 fold in 1947!

Polish army was patroling Lvov at night in 1930s. There was lots of "separatist" activity. (Heard that in Poland from people who lived there in 1938)

[Stacheldraht]

I haven't had time to read this whole thread, so my apologies if the following isn't entirely apropos.

Regarding POW's, you may want to read Christian Streit's Keine Kameraden: Die Wehrmacht und die Sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen 1941-1945. On the German occupation policies in "White Russia" (Byelorussia), you may want to read Christian Gerlach's Kalkulierte Morde.

You can find a long article on the Osttruppen (under "Soviet exiles at war") in The Oxford Companion to World War II (a superb reference, btw), along with a number of suggestions for further reading. This article, btw, estimates "800,000 Soviet nationals in the Wehrmacht by the end of the war."

In various books and documentaries I've read/seen, general knowledge of German atrocities developed early on, though exactly what info was disseminated to whom I don't know off hand. Certainly the refugees returning to liberated villages, and the soldiers that retook them before that saw much evidence. See, for example, the Moscow counter-offensive or the Kerch operation in the winter of 41/2, whereupon the Soviets got to see the German-caused devastation and mass executions first hand. Of course, that's not the same thing as detailed knowledge of high-level German political policy.

[ March 06, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[Frw Koslov]

Hr Stacheldraht,

I agree with your terminal figure of 800,000 ish volunteers in '45 - my sources are a report from the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied Territories dated Jan '45 which says 748,000 plus 60,000 odd Estonians.

There are soo many reasons why the Osttruppen situation has become blurred, not least of which is the sellout of them by the British government post WW2 (ie post Churchill) and the lack of a view on their possible use against Communism a la WW1. Churchill was all in favour of carrying on his White Russian war post WW1... the Americans realising this much too late.

As for attrocities, well, I saw what I always say, in the East you can only say the victors write the history. Everyone involved was as bad as the others - in this part of the world slaughter of your neighbours because of some centuries old grudge is par for the course - see Yugoslavia for a good example of this. Do not think for one minute that every Osttruppen was united as POA! The Germans quickly identified this problem and hence the various factions that made up the Legions.

Frw. Koslov

[illo]

Im under impression that ethnic minorities werent living very happily under Stalins rule. My ex-Girlfriends granma who lived in east karelia in 1940s withnessed slaughter of her village. More than half of people living there were shot on their door steps. They were not allowed to speak finnish, they had to became good soviets. Most who were alive were later sent in siberia. People from central russia moved in to karelia to live in their former homes.

[Stacheldraht]

As for attrocities, well, I saw what I always say, in the East you can only say the victors write the history. Everyone involved was as bad as the others - in this part of the world slaughter of your neighbours because of some centuries old grudge is par for the course - see Yugoslavia for a good example of this.

With all due respect, I thinks that's a dangerous line of thinking and a gross oversimplification. First of all, historians from all over have written about that particular conflict from a variety of angles. German, Russian, American historians, you name it. There's no big conspiracy to paint the Germans in particular in a bad light. Their acts simply brought the opprobrium on themselves.

I don't see how someone can say that "everyone involved was as bad as the others" so easily. First of all, how does one define "bad"? Secondly, in the German-Soviet conflict, civilians suffered inordinately, though the civilians in question were hardly just limited to those within Soviet borders. The German populace suffered at Soviet hands, too. I fail to see how one can compare unarmed villagers or, say, the populace of Leningrad (yes, I know about the volunteer militia etc.), with the Nazi war machine. (And I say Nazi not because all members of the Wehrmacht were Nazis, which of course they weren't, but rather because they were in the service of the Nazi party and acted as its principle means of meting out destruction and death in repeated, unprovoked aggressive actions.)

Im under impression that ethnic minorities werent living very happily under Stalins rule.

Nor were a lot of ethnic Russians for that matter. Stalin and his henchmen were monsters by any sane definition. Starvation, repression, imprisonment, torture--all par for his course, from everything I've read.

[Dr. Brian]

Can we all just agree on the fact that the Nazi regime was hell bent on "eradicating" the Slavs from the face of the earth ... what were we called? Untermenschen ... sub-human.

The National Policy of Germany was imemdiate eradication of intelligencia, slavery for the rest of the Slavs, along with sterilization.

All had to do with Lebensraum ...

Thanks for reading!

[Frw Koslov]

Nope, I maintain my viewpoint that the war in the east had no angels - that is a view that takes no sides other than I am just glad I was not there. It is pointless to argue "who started it" and as adults, lets not even go there.

As for the "subhuman" word, which is something it is not good to start banding around, did you know (and I know you might all view this cynically) that from late in 44 onwards, Osttruppen and other foreign volunteers of the Reich were to recieve the emancipation (sp?) the same as good Deutchevolk ie recieve recieve land etc etc when the war was won. I don't believe the order was issued, but it was drawn up and signed off.

I'll take Sevastapol, I have heard its nice on the beach near there

Frw. Koslov

[Stacheldraht]

It is pointless to argue "who started it" and as adults, lets not even go there.

While many volumes continue to be written about the complexities of the period leading up to the conflict with the USSR and the exact reasons behind it, I think any competent historian will agree that it was the Germans and their allied forces that directly "started it." Getting into a childish shouting match over "who's the bad guy" or "who was the worst" certainly does nothing constructive, but neither should intelligent and objective investigation and analysis be pushed aside. After all, the conflict was a world-changing event that altered or eradicated the lives of millions.

the war in the east had no angels

I'd be hesitant to make such a blanket statement: there were certainly many who sacrificed much and endured mind-boggling hardships for their survival, their homes, their family, their countrymen, or their country itself.

Simply shrugging off the matter by saying everyone was bad, evil, whatever does an injustice to accurate history and, more importantly, to those involved.

[ March 06, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[Lee]

Skipper: What is your current e-mail address? I want to make sure I send

the latest CM turn to the right address. I've been waiting for your next turn

from our CM battle for a century.

[Grisha]

Soviets had two Polish armies, 1st and 2nd. The 1st Polish Army fought with distinction under Rokossovsky's 1st Belorussian Front during the Belorussian campaign in summer 1944.

[Skipper]

Lee,

It's skipper_cm. Domain - same as before.

[Lee]

Skipper,

I sent the latest CM turn file to skipper_cm@(same last part of address you were

using 8 months ago). So you should have received it by now. Let me know if you

didn't get it.